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Author Topic: Question for Sedes  (Read 1383 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Question for Sedes
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2020, 08:35:11 AM »
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  • Why would they wait for Siri to be elected first before going nuclear?  Why not just bully the cardinals into electing their man from the getgo?  Because they wanted their guy to never actually receive the office.  They wanted a pope in name only.

    Sorry, I clipped this question (which I was answering) from the previous quotation I made.

    If they merely stuck an occult heretic impostor into the See, God would still have protected the See from error.  It's only by having a legitimate Pope shoved aside preventing the next one from being legitimate that God's protection of the Magisterium would recede from the person.  Let's say Roncalli had been elected straight out and he wanted to teach grave error to the Church.  God would prevent him from doing so ... even to the point of striking him dead.  But if Roncalli was not the legitimate Pope, God's protection against error would not be with him.

    This kindof speaks to Bellarmine's notion that an occult heretic would remain a legitimate Pope.  Let's say an evil man who was dead set on destroying the Church and keeping his intentions completely secret were elected to the papacy.  According to Bellarmine, and most others, he would in fact be the legitimate Pope with all the protections of the Holy Spirit surrounding his exercise of the office.  If he then set about trying to define a heretical dogma, God would strike him dead if necessary to prevent this.

    So the Masons played this shell game where they removed the legitimate Pope from sight and trotted out an illegitimate impostor.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #31 on: September 09, 2020, 08:43:09 AM »
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  • This may derail the thread but I think it is related.  Didn’t Gary Giuffre speculate that the Freemasons knew they couldn’t count on electing their own man directly?  Because if they had elected a Freemason directly, he would have converted to Catholicism and turned out to be a decent pope. After all Our Lord prayed that Peter would not lose his faith.  So that’s why Bellarmine believed no pope would ever fall into heresy.  And then the same thing happened at the 1962 conclave.  By 1978 the new religion was already instituted so those conclaves were not legitimate any way.  But both Roncalli and Montini were illegitimately installed.  That’s the only way the Freemasons could be sure their guy wouldn’t be converted by the grace of the office.  Why would they wait for Siri to be elected first before going nuclear?  Why not just bully the cardinals into electing their man from the getgo?  Because they wanted their guy to never actually receive the office.  They wanted a pope in name only.

    Recall too that the first man elected after the death of Siri was Ratzinger.  Either by then the entire Cardinalate had become so vitiated by manifest heretics (if you're straight sedevacantist vs. privationist) or else recall that Ratzinger was the first man elected who was consecrated in the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration.  If a man is not a valid bishop, he cannot exercise some powers of the papacy, including Magisterium, since only Bishops can be part of the Ecclesia Docens.  And then Bergoglio may not even be a priest, and this is, BTW, why the Dimonds say that he doesn't count among the list of "Kings of Rome" suggested by the Apocalypse, because the Roman kingship is sacerdotal.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #32 on: September 09, 2020, 09:47:24 AM »
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  • The pope has not always resided in Rome but he has always (since St Peter established the see) been the Bishop of Rome.  For a number of years the pope resided in Avignon.  But that was scandalous.  If you are the Bishop of Rome, you belong in Rome where you can care for the faithful who live there.  You don’t have to be a cleric of Rome to be elected.  Men from all over Europe have been elected in the past.  But no American has ever been elected and to my knowledge no native English-speaking man has ever been elected either.  Italians don’t really like Americans too much.  They can probably tolerate someone from a European country but another Italian is probably the most acceptable.  Where is Fr D’Esposito from?  At least he has a good name for a pope.  Might be a good start.
    Actually, there was Pope Adrian IV, Nicholas Breakspear:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Adrian_IV

    IMHO the Catholic Church needs to quit being the "Italian National Catholic Church" --- this "romanitas" thing (translated: it takes 100 years to get any problem solved) has allowed heresy, error, and abuse to run rampant, while we are assured all along that "Rome moves slowly".  If not for the Internet, would the sex abuse scandal ever have come to light?

    Don't get me wrong, the Pope must be the Bishop of Rome, but Italy needs to be an equal among Catholic nations, not the 800-pound gorilla.  And maybe a straight-talking Anglo-Saxon is what it would take, to begin to get things back to where they need to be.  (I think there is at least one "straight-talking Anglo-Saxon" who we can all agree is a pretty good guy!)

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #33 on: September 09, 2020, 09:49:19 AM »
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  • If they merely stuck an occult heretic impostor into the See, God would still have protected the See from error.  It's only by having a legitimate Pope shoved aside preventing the next one from being legitimate that God's protection of the Magisterium would recede from the person.  Let's say Roncalli had been elected straight out and he wanted to teach grave error to the Church.  God would prevent him from doing so ... even to the point of striking him dead.  But if Roncalli was not the legitimate Pope, God's protection against error would not be with him.
    It's an appealing idea, and a simple explanation for the crisis in the Church, but I don't see why the Siri/Roncalli scenario doesn't suffer from a different problem which would create the same result. Sure, God would prevent a true pope from teaching heresy. We agree on that. But wouldn't God also, for the same reason, protect His Church from universally accepting a heretic as pope, if he wasn't pope? The protection of the papacy from error doesn't seem very useful if we have no protection from adhering to someone who isn't the pope. In other words, what good does it do to the Church to know we are protected from having a pope who teaches error, if we have no corresponding protection from accepting a man (a heretic, even) as pope who isn't the pope?
    .
    Don't get me wrong. I like this idea because it has a simplicity and completeness to it. But like with all attempts to explain the current situation in the Church, it only solves one problem by creating another. :cowboy:

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #34 on: September 09, 2020, 09:53:47 AM »
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  • Recall too that the first man elected after the death of Siri was Ratzinger.  Either by then the entire Cardinalate had become so vitiated by manifest heretics (if you're straight sedevacantist vs. privationist) or else recall that Ratzinger was the first man elected who was consecrated in the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration.  If a man is not a valid bishop, he cannot exercise some powers of the papacy, including Magisterium, since only Bishops can be part of the Ecclesia Docens.  And then Bergoglio may not even be a priest, and this is, BTW, why the Dimonds say that he doesn't count among the list of "Kings of Rome" suggested by the Apocalypse, because the Roman kingship is sacerdotal.
    Do you buy the Dimond 7 priest kings theory?

    I wonder what the Dimonds will do if another Pope is elected (whether you and they think he's an antipope or not being irrelevant) since the way they currently framed the theory seems to bank on Francis being the last serious claimant.


    Offline Matto

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #35 on: September 09, 2020, 09:58:20 AM »
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  • The reason they cannot elect a pope is because they do not have the legal right to do so.

    Who has the legal right to elect a true Pope now? Those men would be the true hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Are the sedes in Communion with them? Do they know whose any of these men are? And if they are known why have they not done their duty of electing a pope?
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #36 on: September 09, 2020, 11:16:42 AM »
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  • Do you buy the Dimond 7 priest kings theory?

    I wonder what the Dimonds will do if another Pope is elected (whether you and they think he's an antipope or not being irrelevant) since the way they currently framed the theory seems to bank on Francis being the last serious claimant.

    I'm not sure if I buy it completely, but I don't rule it out either.  I think that it would fit.  I certainly believe that the Conciliar Church is none other than the Whore of Babylon.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #37 on: September 09, 2020, 11:40:51 AM »
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  • I may have asked this before, its a question i have periodically, but I'm gonna raise this again.

    if you're a Sede, what exactly prevents the Sedevacantist bishops from holding a conclave and electing a pope?

    I mean pretty much every trad and especially every sede already agrees with some principle of "the normal rules don't apply during a crisis situation."  So why would it be that the CHurch couldn't produce for itself a pope?

    Even with Sedeprivationism, would having a non Catholic (under the sede paradigm) with a valid election to the pontificate that they couldn't receive really inhibit the  Church from producing for itself a new pope?  

    Like hypothetically, if the College of Cardinals somehow elected a Protestant to the papacy in the 1500s, OK that would be invalid, they could then elect another pope.  They wouldn't have to wait till the Protestant converted or died, right?

    What am I missing here?  'cause where I'm sitting right now, I understand (though don't agree with) the sede diagnosis, but they seem to write themselves into a corner on the solution.  
    Because they don't elevate the pope over the faith. It is not a "make or break" issue. One is saved by the Catholic faith, which recognizes the structure of Christ's Church as having a pope as the head of it - a pope who also possesses the Catholic faith, which is the sine qua non for all of us. But if God wills that that such be not the case at some particular moment in time (the Great Apostasy?), God's will is supreme and submitted to. 

    The Church survived the Great Western Schism intact; it survives this. 

    Why would a faithful Catholic like Bishop Sanborn and other Sede bishops with the same take upon themselves such an extraordinary and questionable arrogation of authority when such an extreme act is not necessary to salvation for themselves and others who possess the Catholic faith?

    There would only be the potential curse of schism, with the only upside "having a pope," which is not - as I said - necessary. 

    The responsible and wise Sede bishops - like Sanborn - are not fools, and know better than to take such an extreme and unnecessary (worth the emphasis!!!) step that could lead souls to hell,  when it's not necessary to lead them to heaven. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #38 on: September 09, 2020, 11:41:46 AM »
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  • I'm not sure if I buy it completely, but I don't rule it out either.  I think that it would fit.  I certainly believe that the Conciliar Church is none other than the Whore of Babylon.

    Interesting, Lad. I value your opinion, and appreciate your sharing that.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #39 on: September 09, 2020, 11:45:33 AM »
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  • Do you buy the Dimond 7 priest kings theory?

    I wonder what the Dimonds will do if another Pope is elected (whether you and they think he's an antipope or not being irrelevant) since the way they currently framed the theory seems to bank on Francis being the last serious claimant.
    The 7 Kings theory they have isn't necessarily reliant on Francis being the last pope, since they say Francis himself isn't even one of the kings. Francis being the last pope is just their theory based on St. Malachy's Prophecy, which honestly seems very doubtful to me. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #40 on: September 09, 2020, 11:53:09 AM »
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  • The 7 Kings theory they have isn't necessarily reliant on Francis being the last pope, since they say Francis himself isn't even one of the kings. Francis being the last pope is just their theory based on St. Malachy's Prophecy, which honestly seems very doubtful to me.

    Right, they exclude Bergoglio because he was ordained New Rite and therefore, in their view, not even a valid priest, and they cite some text about the Kingship of Rome being sacerdotal in nature.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #41 on: September 09, 2020, 11:54:52 AM »
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  • Interesting, Lad. I value your opinion, and appreciate your sharing that.

    I could go into detail, but the description of the Whore of Babylon fits perfectly the Conciliar Church.  Now, the Prots claim that it is the Church itself because of many of the features which make it sound like the Catholic hierarchy, but it's actually a perversion (whoring) of the hierarchy, and not the hierarchy itself as the Prots assert.  St. Peter does himself refer to Rome as "Babylon".

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #42 on: September 09, 2020, 12:25:35 PM »
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  • The pope is necessary.  And when there isn’t a pope, it is the hierarchy’s chief responsibility to provide the Church with one.  To say that the pope isn’t necessary is to align oneself to Protestant heretics and Orthodox schismatics.  The pope is our guarantee against falling away from the faith.  You can not be sure you yourself have preserved your faith unless you are united with the pope.  In the case where there is no pope for an extended period of time or at least where the supposed pope is a manifest heretic we should be terrified for our own salvation.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #43 on: September 09, 2020, 01:31:42 PM »
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  • The pope is necessary.  And when there isn’t a pope, it is the hierarchy’s chief responsibility to provide the Church with one.  To say that the pope isn’t necessary is to align oneself to Protestant heretics and Orthodox schismatics.  The pope is our guarantee against falling away from the faith.  You can not be sure you yourself have preserved your faith unless you are united with the pope.  In the case where there is no pope for an extended period of time or at least where the supposed pope is a manifest heretic we should be terrified for our own salvation.
    You clearly haven't understood my post. I used was speaking of necessity in the sense of salvation, as may reference to the Catholic faith should have made apparent. 

    The Catholic faith is necessary (as a necessity of means) to salvation; having a Catholic pope on the seat of Peter is not. 

    According to your reading of my post, if the Sedes are right, and we have no pope at present, that means no one can be saved at present. That's absurd. 

    And . . aren't you a Sede? Do you truly believe then that no one can be saved at present?

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #44 on: September 09, 2020, 09:32:53 PM »
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  • I guess this is just one possible answer regarding how R&R is not inconsistent to doubt the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration, yet accept BXVI was pope (i.e., despite being consecrated bishop according to the new rite).
    I don't see how that works.  Ladislaus' argument is that the Church could obviously select for itself a Pope without *Cardinals*.  Which I agree with, and which was my point in the OP.  Cardinals aren't a part of divine law, and there werent' any in the Church for (about) 1000 years.  Sure, the human laws (of the present pope, or of Pius XII if you don't accept the recent claimants) require cardinals, but the Church's highest law is the salvation of souls and all that... if there really hasn't been a pope since Pius XII, I think he'd understand and agree with the Church's necessity not to follow his ecclesial laws in this situation.

    This doesn't answer how a non bishop could be the Vicar of Christ.