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Author Topic: Question for Sedes  (Read 1920 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: Question for Sedes
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2020, 08:10:03 PM »
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  • I get that all these conclave groups are illegitimate, because they don't *even* entail a unity of those who do not think Francis is the Pope.  That the Sedevacantists still cannot gather together and elect in unison a new pope, heavily inclines me to believe that the real reason that they can't is because we have a Pope, just a very bad one.
    The reason they cannot elect a pope is because they do not have the legal right to do so. There has long been an argument against sedevacantism that, if sedes are able to say that the see is vacant, they should therefore be able to fill it by electing a pope. This does not follow. It would be like saying that, if you can see that a flash flood is coming while you are hiking up a dry gulch, you are therefore able to build a life raft in the next 10 seconds before it hits you. There is a fundamental difference between recognizing the existence of a problem and being able to fix it.
    .
    If you talk to the typical sedevacantist priest or bishop, he will tell you that he possesses no ordinary jurisdiction, and he only exercises his orders for the good of souls by saying Mass, hearing confessions, performing Extreme Unction, and other similar duties. These things can be justified in canon law, by various canons which state that any priest may confer the sacraments in case of necessity when a priest who has ordinary jurisdiction is not available. They generally consider this sort of thing to be the limit of what they are able to do, and this obviously does not include the power to elect a pope.
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    And also, as Ladislaus said, there is really no way to get all sedevacantists to agree on a method of election, even if they thought they had the power to do so. The problem of electing a true pope, as far as I can see, is outside the realm of human ability at the moment. But then again, it's also outside the realm of human ability for the SSPX and similar-minded people to get the people in Rome to act like Catholics either, so fundamentally we are all in the same boat, and we all are just awaiting God's will.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #16 on: September 08, 2020, 08:28:15 PM »
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  • Every traditional Catholic group is not equal in authority when attempting to elect a pope.  Obviously a mother and father conclave in rural Kansas which results in their son claiming the Roman See is a comical farce.  But if a small group of Roman clerics met in council or a large group of traditional bishops met in an imperfect council which had the support of a few Roman clerics, then that group would have to be taken seriously.  John Daly and James Larrabee have written excellent articles on this topic.  The links are in some other thread on this forum.  You can search my posts to find them.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #17 on: September 08, 2020, 08:35:50 PM »
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  • No, there does NOT have to be universal acceptance in the sense of all Catholics or more specifically all traditional Catholics or even all traditional Catholic clergy.  If the vast majority of traditional Catholic clergy of Rome accept the claim then it is a done deal.  It really doesn’t matter if a large number of Catholics go off into schism.  Certainly that would be something that everyone would want to avoid like the plague but it would not invalidate the election.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #18 on: September 08, 2020, 08:39:22 PM »
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  • Sean, I do see the potential for someone like Vigano to unite sedes and r&r but we are a long way from that.  Definitely something to pray for.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #19 on: September 08, 2020, 08:41:08 PM »
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  • Every traditional Catholic group is not equal in authority when attempting to elect a pope.  Obviously a mother and father conclave in rural Kansas which results in their son claiming the Roman See is a comical farce.  But if a small group of Roman clerics met in council or a large group of traditional bishops met in an imperfect council which had the support of a few Roman clerics, then that group would have to be taken seriously.  John Daly and James Larrabee have written excellent articles on this topic.  The links are in some other thread on this forum.  You can search my posts to find them.
    Obviously I know Pope Michael is a farce.  What I had in mind was something like, all the SSPV bishops, all the CMRI bishops, all the Bishops in Donald Sanborn's group (is that just him?  Honestly don't know) basically, if all the bishops who consider themselves to be Roman Catholic and do not consider Pope Francis to be a valid pope.... were to gather and elect a pope I cannot imagine that wouldn't be a valid if the see is indeed vacant.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #20 on: September 08, 2020, 08:48:26 PM »
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  • Sedes and Resistance r&r agree that a new religion was instituted in the wake of V2.  If all we had was a few theological controversies or a upward trend in liturgical abuses, there would be no Sspx and no CMRI and no independent bishops, etc.  It was because a new religion came into being and it was claiming to retain the Catholic title.  Vigano looks like he is beginning to reject that new religion and a man of his stature could generate some momentum.  We’ll see.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #21 on: September 08, 2020, 08:52:50 PM »
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  • Obviously I know Pope Michael is a farce.  What I had in mind was something like, all the SSPV bishops, all the CMRI bishops, all the Bishops in Donald Sanborn's group (is that just him?  Honestly don't know) basically, if all the bishops who consider themselves to be Roman Catholic and do not consider Pope Francis to be a valid pope.... were to gather and elect a pope I cannot imagine that wouldn't be a valid if the see is indeed vacant.
    I don’t see an American claimant getting any acceptance at all in Rome.  Best bet is an Italian claimant.  But that implies Italian participation.  That could happen.  It would be great if someone like Vigano started questioning the validity of NO sacraments.  If he did and he got a significant Italian following, that would be a very powerful combination.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #22 on: September 08, 2020, 08:56:39 PM »
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  • There are sedes in Italy.  Fr Abramovitz is maybe the most well known since he was a former member of the SSPX.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #23 on: September 08, 2020, 08:59:36 PM »
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  • Yes, it is an absolute requirement that the pope is the Bishop of Rome.  That is de fide.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #24 on: September 08, 2020, 09:14:20 PM »
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  • The pope has not always resided in Rome but he has always (since St Peter established the see) been the Bishop of Rome.  For a number of years the pope resided in Avignon.  But that was scandalous.  If you are the Bishop of Rome, you belong in Rome where you can care for the faithful who live there.  You don’t have to be a cleric of Rome to be elected.  Men from all over Europe have been elected in the past.  But no American has ever been elected and to my knowledge no native English-speaking man has ever been elected either.  Italians don’t really like Americans too much.  They can probably tolerate someone from a European country but another Italian is probably the most acceptable.  Where is Fr D’Esposito from?  At least he has a good name for a pope.  Might be a good start.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #25 on: September 08, 2020, 10:53:45 PM »
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  • This may derail the thread but I think it is related.  Didn’t Gary Giuffre speculate that the Freemasons knew they couldn’t count on electing their own man directly?  Because if they had elected a Freemason directly, he would have converted to Catholicism and turned out to be a decent pope. After all Our Lord prayed that Peter would not lose his faith.  So that’s why Bellarmine believed no pope would ever fall into heresy.  And then the same thing happened at the 1962 conclave.  By 1978 the new religion was already instituted so those conclaves were not legitimate any way.  But both Roncalli and Montini were illegitimately installed.  That’s the only way the Freemasons could be sure their guy wouldn’t be converted by the grace of the office.  Why would they wait for Siri to be elected first before going nuclear?  Why not just bully the cardinals into electing their man from the getgo?  Because they wanted their guy to never actually receive the office.  They wanted a pope in name only.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #26 on: September 08, 2020, 11:40:08 PM »
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  • There are sedes in Italy.  Fr Abramovitz is maybe the most well known since he was a former member of the SSPX.
    And there's Mater Boni Consilii Institute
    https://www.sodalitiumpianum.com/who-we-are/
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #27 on: September 08, 2020, 11:42:53 PM »
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  • Yes, it is an absolute requirement that the pope is the Bishop of Rome.  That is de fide.
    Yes, He will become Bishop of Rome by virtue of his election. He is not required to have a previous affiliation with the Diocese of Rome.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #28 on: September 09, 2020, 08:31:30 AM »
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  • This may derail the thread but I think it is related.  Didn’t Gary Giuffre speculate that the Freemasons knew they couldn’t count on electing their own man directly?  Because if they had elected a Freemason directly, he would have converted to Catholicism and turned out to be a decent pope. After all Our Lord prayed that Peter would not lose his faith.

    That and the fact that God would prevent a legitimate Pope from teaching serious error to the Church, to the point of striking him dead if he had intended to do so and was on the point of doing it.

    THAT is why the Masons insisted on letting Siri accept, becoming the pope, and then basically casting him aside and planting an illegitimate impostor in his place.  I find this theory to be extremely plausible, and a perfect explanation for how this could have happened to the Catholic Church.

    Otherwise, I agree with Giuffre that, even if an occult heretic of some kind had infiltrated the papacy, God would still have prevented him from gravely erroneous official teaching, preserving the integrity of the Magisterium.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question for Sedes
    « Reply #29 on: September 09, 2020, 08:32:26 AM »
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  • Yes, He will become Bishop of Rome by virtue of his election. He is not required to have a previous affiliation with the Diocese of Rome.

    Right, I believe that this is what Bellarmine implied, but it's been a log time since I read what he wrote on this subject.