Author Topic: Question for non-Feeneyite sedevacantists? (Read 2591 times)

Tradycja · « **on:** December 31, 2010, 10:17:15 PM »

I am not a sedevacantist. I do not find the arguments convincing, but what I REALLY cannot understand is the non-Feeneyite sedevacantists.

I have a question for non-Feeneyite sedevacantists:

What I would like to know is how is your position on EENS fundamentally different than what you would call the "Novus Ordo Church" or the "Vatican II Church"?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2010, 11:10:21 PM »

Novus ordo ignores the necessity of sanctifying grace as does a Feenyite sedevacantist.

A non-Feeneyite sede understands that all who die in the state of Sanctifying grace, die a Catholic and are saved, many through the mercy of God.

umblehay anmay · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2010, 11:40:16 PM »

Quote from: Tradycja

I am not a sedevacantist. I do not find the arguments convincing, but what I REALLY cannot understand is the non-Feeneyite sedevacantists.

I have a question for non-Feeneyite sedevacantists:

What I would like to know is how is your position on EENS fundamentally different than what you would call the "Novus Ordo Church" or the "Vatican II Church"?

The Vatican II Novus Ordo believes that individuals can be saved no matter what religion they follow... while the non-Feeneyite Sedevacantist believes that individuals can be saved no matter what religion they follow....erm... errrrr. aahhhhh... ok... so the difference would be... err. ummm er er er uh uh um.... I'll get back with you later on that...

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2011, 01:53:03 AM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Novus ordo ignores the necessity of sanctifying grace as does a Feenyite sedevacantist.

A non-Feeneyite sede understands that all who die in the state of Sanctifying grace, die a Catholic and are saved, many through the mercy of God.

Actually you are incorrect Myrna. Feeneyite Sedevacantists believe in the necessity of sanctifying grace which they say can only be gotten through the Sacraments of the Catholic Church(i.e.- Water baptism) and only if the person remains a member within the Church.

It is non-Feeneyite sedes such as yourself who believe as the Novus Ordo sect teaches, which is that non-catholics can receive sanctifying grace outside of the Church's sacraments and outside of being a member of the Church. MyrnaM, you have already proven this by your denial that only through the Church's Sacrament of Water Baptism can a person receive sanctifying grace and become a member within the Church Christ has given us. You obviously have accepted the Novus Ordo false teaching of Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Also, you seemingly reject the infallible teaching which says "there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church".

MyrnaM, therefore since you agree with the Novus Ordo sect and Vatican II on so many of these false teachings, then why are you a Sedevacantist at all. From what I gather so far, you and Benedict are in agreement in your beliefs.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2011, 02:28:28 AM »

Novus Ordites can believe anything from universal salvation to Feeneyism. As long as they join the post conciliar Matrix.

Non Feeney Trads believe the Traditional Catholic position which is eminently reasonable. The only sure path to salvation is to be a Catholic. There is the possibility that non-Catholics can be saved. If they are it would be in spite of the fact they are not Catholics and not because of it. Also, not being Catholic puts you in a very dangerous position as to salvation. As Pius IX said there is no good hope of non Catholics being saved. But there is hope.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2011, 02:38:27 AM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

As Pius IX said there is no good hope of non Catholics being saved. But there is hope.

stevusmagnus, you said, "But there is hope"
So can you show us all where Pius IX said that there is hope that non-catholics can be saved if they die as non-Catholics outside the Church? I'd like to see that.

Infallible Church teaching -> "There is no salvation outside the Church"

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #6 on:** January 01, 2011, 03:10:55 AM »

Error- There is good hope for the salvation of non-Catholics.

If there were NO hope for the salvation of non-Catholics there would have been no need for Pius IX to put "good" in there. This implicitly shows Pius IX did believe the Church teaches there is hope.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #7 on:** January 01, 2011, 03:45:15 AM »

P. Pius IX Encyclical
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR
August 10, 1863

We all know that those who are invincibly ignorant of our religion and who nevertheless lead an honest and upright life, can, under the influence of divine light and divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who knows and sees the mind, the heart, the thoughts, and the dispositions of every man, cannot in His infinite bounty and clemency permit any one to suffer eternal punishment who is not guilty through his own fault."
(Denzinger 1677)

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 01, 2011, 04:46:58 AM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

P. Pius IX Encyclical
QUANTO CONFICIAMUR
August 10, 1863

We all know that those who are invincibly ignorant of our religion and who nevertheless lead an honest and upright life, can, under the influence of divine light and divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who knows and sees the mind, the heart, the thoughts, and the dispositions of every man, cannot in His infinite bounty and clemency permit any one to suffer eternal punishment who is not guilty through his own fault."
(Denzinger 1677)

Notice how it says "under the influence of divine light and divine grace, attain to eternal life". "Divine Light and Divine Grace" simply means that God will guide them to the Church before they perish. God would make a way by which they can know of the Church and he would provide the means(water baptism) by which they can enter the Church. Also, notice that it says "attain to eternal life" which means they haven't gotten to that point yet. So therefore, through God's guidance(Divine Light and Divine Grace) they may find a way to the Church(attain to), but they haven't gotten there yet.

Besides, this is not an infallible statement from Pius IX

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #9 on:** January 01, 2011, 04:59:23 AM »

Your interpretation would render the passage redundant and void of any real meaning. The passage is clearly referring to the possibility of salvation for a non-Catholic.

If you want to interpret this to mean that God miraculously appears and water baptizes every non-Catholic soul before they die who is to be saved, that position is really not any different than the Traditional position in final result. Besides, this theory is also mentioned nowhere I know of in Tradition and would be completely out of character for God who tends to work miracles only in extraordinary circuмstances. Christ physically appearing and water baptizing every single non-catholic to be saved before death knows of no theological precedent and seems incredible to believe.

Deliveringit1 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 01, 2011, 05:35:12 AM »

Quote from: stevusmagnus

Your interpretation would render the passage redundant and void of any real meaning. The passage is clearly referring to the possibility of salvation for a non-Catholic.

If you want to interpret this to mean that God miraculously appears and water baptizes every non-Catholic soul before they die who is to be saved, that position is really not any different than the Traditional position in final result. Besides, this theory is also mentioned nowhere I know of in Tradition and would be completely out of character for God who tends to work miracles only in extraordinary circuмstances. Christ physically appearing and water baptizing every single non-catholic to be saved before death knows of no theological precedent and seems incredible to believe.

I didn't say in my last post that God magically appears. Instead, I said that God would make a way for that particular individual to find out about the Church(here in the temporal). Perhaps God would send a missionary to that person so as to teach that person about the faith and to baptize that person. Maybe God would make the Church known to that person in some other way whereby that person would seek out the Church on their own and then enter it through water baptism. In any case, if God knows of a person who would accept him, then God would make a way, here in the temporal realm, by which that person can enter the Church through Water baptism.

As for "extraoridinary means" of salvation,..I believe that if God does work through "extraordinary means" , then he does so by using the "ordinary means", though we are unable to see him do it. But that is just speculation. Nobody knows for sure.

Bazz · « **Reply #11 on:** January 01, 2011, 08:18:42 AM »

Quote from: Tradycja

What I would like to know is how is your position on EENS fundamentally different than what you would call the "Novus Ordo Church" or the "Vatican II Church"?

The Novus Ordo break from tradition and believe that false religions themselves are means of grace and salvation. That is the heresy of ecuмenism.

Sedevacantists believe traditional Catholic teaching, the same as St. Augustine, St. Bernard, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Bellarmine etc, etc. that God converts people before they actually enter the Church explicitly. Such people are given the grace of perfect contrition/perfect love/faith, which gives them sanctifying grace. If that complete process of conversion is forestalled by death, their sanctifying grace merits them eternal life (though as usual they may have some purgatory). Nobody except the Lord knows that this happens to any particular individual. We just know that God can and does do this. Though a person's body may have still been in a false religion membership, the sanctifying grace makes them essential in the Catholic Church in reality.

umblehay anmay · « **Reply #12 on:** January 04, 2011, 09:31:28 AM »

Quote from: Bazz

.... Nobody except the Lord knows that this happens to any particular individual. We just know that God can and does do this....

?????? If nobody except the Lord knows it happens on any individual basis and he specifically said that "Unless A MAN is born again of water AND the Holy Ghost, etc" , how do we know it happens at all????????

umblehay anmay · « **Reply #13 on:** January 04, 2011, 09:33:53 AM »

Quote from: Bazz

...Though a person's body may have still been in a false religion membership, the sanctifying grace makes them essential in the Catholic Church in reality.

So a person can continue to practice the Old Testament law AND still be in a state of Sanctifying Grace????

Cristian · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2011, 09:41:01 AM »

Quote from: Tradycja

I am not a sedevacantist. I do not find the arguments convincing, but what I REALLY cannot understand is the non-Feeneyite sedevacantists.

I have a question for non-Feeneyite sedevacantists:

What I would like to know is how is your position on EENS fundamentally different than what you would call the "Novus Ordo Church" or the "Vatican II Church"?

N.O. teaches we all belong to the a super Church and we are all saved without needing grace. The teaching of Pre-Vat II is essentially that membership in the Church (non membership) is not the same as being inside (outside) the Church. Therefore a man may be inside the Church without being member. The difference is clear.