Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Question for Myrna  (Read 10592 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MyrnaM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6273
  • Reputation: +3629/-347
  • Gender: Female
    • Myforever.blog/blog
Question for Myrna
« Reply #75 on: July 31, 2010, 11:31:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: wallflower
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote
    My understanding of the sedes though, is that there is a blanket statement or judgment made across the board that no NO is or could possibly be Catholic. In that case there would be no doubt that their baptism was invalid (beyond whatever year the sedes believe the NO started).


    When Christ instituted the sacrament of Baptism, along with the other sacraments.  They were instituted by Christ and belong to Christ. But He founded the Catholic Church, and committed His religion to her only.  One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. If the novus ordo person administer Baptism validly, it is because one need not be a priest, therefore if the Baptism was done properly even within the novus ordo, the person is Baptized into the Catholic Church, because they alone own the sacrament, through Christ.   The person is not Baptized into novus ordo or Protestant sect but the Catholic church.  Yet, it still must be done properly, which is my point.

    As Dawn pointed out, there are too many questions these days as to whether it was done properly or not.  

    Since Baptism could only be administered ONCE, an all out Baptism as you worded it would not be correct, on the chance it was done properly.


    Right. Which is why the argument that a Novus Ordo person CAN BE a Catholic still stands. Dawn's position of doing a full baptism for her husband and children makes sense from the sede standpoint that no NO could be Catholic. But you just contradicted yourself saying on one hand that a NO could receive a true baptism, yet on the other hand, no NO can be considered Catholic in SV chapels. This is not consistent. In your mind, can a NO be a Catholic or not? Or is there doubt, in which case, some are and some are not?


    There is no contradiction, just misunderstanding.  Since there is only One Lord, One Faith and One Baptism, all those properly baptized are Catholic.  Since the Sacrament was given to the Catholic Church ONLY, and a priest is not necessary to baptise.  
    So, all babies within the novus ordo properly baptized are Catholic, no doubt about it. ALL  Laity properly baptized  who retain the Faith are Catholic.  However the Modernist,  be they be religious or laity, although baptized Catholic, are not practicing the Catholic Faith, because Modernism is a heresy. Heresy puts you outside the Church.    Just as your neighborhood mainstream Protestant Church, their babies are Baptized Catholic, since a priest is not necessary, and if the baptism was done properly, they are also Catholic babies, but when their use of reason kicks in, although still baptized Catholic, they are practicing Protestants and because of their heresy, they too are put outside the Church.  
    Do you consider then, your local Protestants, Catholic, or do you see them as Protestants?  By your logic it seems that everyone in the world who was ever properly baptized are Catholic, and again, although they were baptized Catholic for reasons explained, (not be me, but the catechism books on baptism) above, they left the teachings of Christ for a newer man made religion, they no longer are practicing Catholics.  CMRI in the same way sees the novus ordo, because of their heresy, as being outside the Church.   If they are without heresy, why is there a SSPX, why not send your children to their Catholic schools, why not just attend their “Mass”.  I guess you might say novus is a mixture of Catholics and non-catholics,  truth and error.  Not my definition of the One, True Church.  
    I have read here many times that even SSPX considers heretics within the novus ordo church.  A heretic is not a Catholic, although baptized Catholic.  They have left the Catholic church for a new religion.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +47/-2
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #76 on: July 31, 2010, 11:32:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Saint Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says the same thing (III, 64, 8 ad 2): "In the words uttered by (the minister), the intention of the Church is expressed; and this suffices for the validity of the Sacrament, EXCEPT THE CONTRARY BE EXPRESSED EXTERIORLY on the part of the minister

    There we go. But the priests are saying you are being made a memmber of the community. They do not have the right intention


    Offline Caminus

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3038
    • Reputation: +7/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #77 on: July 31, 2010, 11:33:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Dawn
    Does the Jew or whomever have the intention to baptize the person who has requested it? Then it is done.

    But, as I stated Caminus (which means Vulcan's furnace I see) the Novus Ordo priest clearly did not have the right intention.


    You're switching conditions of the recipient.  We're not talking about that, we're talking about the minister of baptism.  How is it that a Jew can validly baptize someone?  He obviously doesn't believe anything that we believe.  How is it that his errors do not affect that validity of the Sacrament?  That is the question.  

    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3629/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #78 on: July 31, 2010, 11:34:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Caminus
    Quote
    I wonder what will happen to all the SSPX laity, if their Bishops really do merge fully with novus ordo.


    I wonder what's going to happen to the sede's when a traditional Pontiff is elected.  Unless they are content with no Pope or bishops until the end of time?


    I have hope we Traditionalist will all unite!
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Caminus

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3038
    • Reputation: +7/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #79 on: July 31, 2010, 11:36:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Dawn
    Saint Thomas Aquinas, the Prince of Theologians, says the same thing (III, 64, 8 ad 2): "In the words uttered by (the minister), the intention of the Church is expressed; and this suffices for the validity of the Sacrament, EXCEPT THE CONTRARY BE EXPRESSED EXTERIORLY on the part of the minister

    There we go. But the priests are saying you are being made a memmber of the community. They do not have the right intention


    That's exactly what I said, so long as the FORM is maintained, the external intention is maintained as well.  Now if the priest said "I baptize you in the name of the community" it would obviously be invalid due to form and intention.

    So long as a man says the proper form, the baptism is valid, he exteriorly manifests the proper intention based on the mere fact that he properly states the form.  He doesn't have to believe the same thing we believe, he must simply intend on "doing what the Church does."  That is why the recitation of the form suffices to manifest this intention.  It has nothing to do with subjective errors.


    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3629/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #80 on: July 31, 2010, 11:37:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Caminus
    Quote from: Dawn
    Does the Jew or whomever have the intention to baptize the person who has requested it? Then it is done.

    But, as I stated Caminus (which means Vulcan's furnace I see) the Novus Ordo priest clearly did not have the right intention.


    You're switching conditions of the recipient.  We're not talking about that, we're talking about the minister of baptism.  How is it that a Jew can validly baptize someone?  He obviously doesn't believe anything that we believe.  How is it that his errors do not affect that validity of the Sacrament?  That is the question.  


    Two different errors, the Jews have their personal error, and the errors of a valid Baptism are the way it was done, the matter and form.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Caminus

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3038
    • Reputation: +7/-2
    • Gender: Male
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #81 on: July 31, 2010, 11:41:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: Caminus
    Quote from: Dawn
    Does the Jew or whomever have the intention to baptize the person who has requested it? Then it is done.

    But, as I stated Caminus (which means Vulcan's furnace I see) the Novus Ordo priest clearly did not have the right intention.


    You're switching conditions of the recipient.  We're not talking about that, we're talking about the minister of baptism.  How is it that a Jew can validly baptize someone?  He obviously doesn't believe anything that we believe.  How is it that his errors do not affect that validity of the Sacrament?  That is the question.  


    Two different errors, the Jews have their personal error, and the errors of a valid Baptism are the way it was done, the matter and form.  


    If a modernist priest baptizes a man saying "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" that baptism is valid.  It doesn't matter what he personally thinks is happening.  The Jew thinks nothing is happening at all, but that doesn't affect the validity.

    Conditional baptism should only be administered if positive evidence of its invalidity can be produced.  This has been the constant teaching and direction of Rome for centuries.    

    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +47/-2
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #82 on: July 31, 2010, 11:43:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The right thing to do is to make certain that things are done correctly. That is why it is Conditionally and if you have not already been baptised.
    Even the SSPX does this as stated elsewhere in the thread. So Caminus what is the argument. It is better to be safe than sorry.


    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3629/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #83 on: July 31, 2010, 11:45:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Conditional baptism should only be administered if positive evidence of its invalidity can be produced.  This has been the constant teaching and direction of Rome for centuries.


    That may or may not be true Caminus, but since you posted it, I will take it for truth.  However the Church has not ever existed before during the Great Apostasy either.  With all the different novelties around these days, I doubt God will hold it against us for a conditional Baptism.      
     
     
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +47/-2
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #84 on: July 31, 2010, 11:48:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote
    Conditional baptism should only be administered if positive evidence of its invalidity can be produced.  This has been the constant teaching and direction of Rome for centuries.


    That may or may not be true Caminus, but since you posted it, I will take it for truth.  However the Church has not ever existed before during the Great Apostasy either.  With all the different novelties around these days, I doubt God will hold it against us for a conditional Baptism.      
     
     




    Which is again why we opt on the side of safety. Who remembers there baptism? And, surely since the 1960's you would be right in assuming there is a good chance something is wrong.

    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +47/-2
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #85 on: July 31, 2010, 11:51:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now this does muddy up the waters for those who try and defend the Novus Ordo and say they have proper intention for the Sacrament of Baptism:


    "Cardinal" Ratzinger Denies Catholic Dogma on Original Sin:

    For Ratzinger, Original Sin is not a Deprivation of Sanctifying Grace in Human Souls Transmitted by Natural Generation but a Damage in Human Relationships Encountered by Every Human Being

     From
    "'In the Beginning...': A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall"
    (Eerdmans, 1995)

    originally published as
    "Im Anfang schuf Gott..."
    in Germany in 1986
     

    What Ratzinger says (official English translation by Boniface Ramsey, OP):

          "In the Genesis story that we are considering, still a further characteristic of sin is described. Sin is not spoken of in general as an abstract possibility but as a deed, as the sin of a particular person, Adam, who stands at the origin of humankind and with whom the history of sin begins. The account tells us that sin begets sin, and that therefore all the sins of history are interlinked. Theology refers to this state of affairs by the certainly misleading and imprecise term 'original sin.' What does this mean? Nothing seems to us today to be stranger or, indeed, more absurd than to insist upon original sin, since, according to our way of thinking, guilt can only be something very personal, and since God does not run a cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ, in which one’s relative are imprisoned, because he is a liberating God of love, who calls each one by name. What does original sin mean, then, when we interpret it correctly?
         "Finding an answer to this requires nothing less than trying to understand the human person better. It must once again be stressed that no human being is closed in upon himself or herself and that no one can live of or for himself or herself alone. We receive our life not only at the moment of birth but every day from without--from others who are not ourselves but who nonetheless somehow pertain to us. Human beings have their selves not only in themselves but also outside of themselves: they live in those whom they love and in those who love them and to whom they are 'present.' Human beings are relational, and they possess their lives--themselves--only by way of relationship. I alone am not myself, but only in and with you am I myself. To be truly a human being means to be related in love, to be of and for. But sin means the damaging or the destruction of relationality. Sin is a rejection of relationality because it wants to make the human being a god. Sin is loss of relationship, disturbance of relationship, and therefore it is not restricted to the individual. When I destroy a relationship, then this event--sin--touches the other person involved in the relationship. Consequently sin is always an offense that touches others, that alters the world and damages it. To the extent that this is true, when the network of human relationships is damaged from the very beginning, then every human being enters into a world that is marked by relational damage. At the very moment that a person begins human existence, which is a good, he or she is confronted by a sin-damaged world. Each of us enters into a situation in which relationality has been hurt. Consequently each person is, from the very start, damaged in relationships and does not engage in them as he or she ought. Sin pursues the human being, and he or she capitulates to it."

    --Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, 'In the Beginning...', pp. 71-73

    Proof: To view scanned copies of Pages 72-73, please click here.

    To be fair to Fr. Ratzinger, Novus Ordo Watch went through the somewhat costly trouble (thank you for your donations!) of acquiring a copy of the original German book, and we found the English translation to be a bit sloppy. For fairness' and accuracy's sake, then, we produce the following German original text and its accurate English translation:

    German Original Text of Important Points where the official English (Ramsey) translation is faulty:

    "Die Theologie hat für diesen Sachverhalt das sicher mißverständliche und ungenaue Wort 'Erbsünde' gefunden.
    ...
    "Weil es so ist, gilt: Wenn das Beziehungsgefüge des Menschseins vom Anfang her gestört wird, tritt jeder Mensch fortan in eine von der Beziehungsstörung geprägte Welt ein. Mit dem Menschsein selbst, das gut ist, fällt ihn zugleich eine von der Sünde gestörte Welt an."

    [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Im Anfang Schuf Gott (Freiburg: Johannes Verlag, Neuausgabe 1996), pp. 72-73]

    More Accurate English Translation:

    "For this state of affairs theology has found the certainly mistakable and imprecise word 'original sin.'"
    ...
    "Because this is so, it is the case that: if the relational structure of being human is disturbed from the beginnning, every human being henceforth enters a world shaped by relational disturbance. With the very fact of being human, which is good, at the same time a world disturbed by sin attacks him."

    German is a difficult language to translate. To further help the reader understand what is meant even in our translation, let it be said that "state of affairs" is meant to denote here a "set of circuмstances and facts," which is what the German word Sachverhalt denotes. Secondly, the official Ramsey translation falsely renders the word mißverständlich as "misleading." But "misleading" in German is irreführend. An accurate translation of the word mißverständlich is "mistakable," for the word mißverständlich literally means "misunderstandable," that is, "lending itself to being misunderstood."

    Next, the German word Erbsünde has "original sin" as its official English counterpart. Nevertheless, there is a difference between the two terms as far as their literal meaning goes. Erbsünde literally means "sin of inheritance" or "inherited sin." This is very important, for Fr. Ratzinger is saying that the term "inherited sin" by itself lends itself to being misunderstood and is imprecise. But this is false. Since original sin is something we inherit from our parents in virtue of being members of the human race, there could hardly be a more fitting term than "inherited sin" or "sin of inheritance." Fr. Ratzinger, however, believes the term to be misleading because, as his "explanation" of original sin shows, he does not in fact believe it to be an inherited sin. For him, inherited/original sin is a matter of damaged human relationships, of "sin bringing forth sin" (German: "Sünde bringt Sünde hervor") in a world shaped and disturbed by sin. But this is his New Theology--modern existentialism mixed with Catholicism--and it is at grave odds with the Catholic understanding of original sin as a lack of sanctifying grace in the human soul that is transmitted at conception to every member of the human race precisely because he is human and thus necessarily shares in the original sin of Adam (the Church teaches that there was only one miraculous exception to this: the immaculately-conceived Blessed Virgin Mary, from whom the Blessed Lord Jesus Christ, true God and true man, drew flesh and was also, of course, without stain of any sin or guilt). The Catholic teaching that original sin is transmitted by natural generation is dogmatic, and thus its doubt or denial constitutes heresy. Note that though "Cardinal" Ratzinger, now claiming to be "Pope" Benedict XVI, acknowledges some concept of "original sin" in his book, the concept of original sin he holds to is a false one and at odds with the Catholic teaching on original sin as a real sin transmitted by natural generation. Therefore:

    Reality Check: What does the Holy Catholic Church teach on Original Sin?

    Pope St. Zosimus, Epistle Tractatoria ad Orientalis Ecclesias, 418 (Denzinger 109a)
    "By [Christ's] death that bond of death introduced into all of us by Adam and transmitted to every soul, that bond contracted by propagation is broken, in which no one of our children is held not guilty until he is freed through baptism."

    Council of Trent, Session V, Decree on Original Sin, 1546 (Denzinger 788-791)
    1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema.

    2. If any one asserts, that the prevarication of Adam injured himself alone, and not his posterity; and that the holiness and justice, received of God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone, and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, has only transfused death, and pains of the body, into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul; let him be anathema:--whereas he contradicts the apostle who says; By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

    3. If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propogation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Whence that voice; Behold the lamb of God behold him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.

    4. If any one denies, that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, even though they be sprung from baptized parents, are to be baptized; or says that they are baptized indeed for the remission of sins, but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam, which has need of being expiated by the laver of regeneration for the obtaining of life everlasting,--whence it follows as a consequence, that in them the form of baptism, for the remission of sins, is understood to be not true, but false, --let him be anathema. For that which the apostle has said, By one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men in whom all have sinned, is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church spread everywhere hath always understood it. For, by reason of this rule of faith, from a tradition of the apostles, even infants, who could not as yet commit any sin of themselves, are for this cause truly baptized for the remission of sins, that in them that may be cleansed away by regeneration, which they have contracted by generation. For, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    ...This same holy Synod doth nevertheless declare, that it is not its intention to include in this decree, where original sin is treated of, the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the mother of God; but that the constitutions of Pope Sixtus IV., of happy memory, are to be observed, under the pains contained in the said constitutions, which it renews.

    Pope Pius XI, Encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, 1937 (source)
    "'Original sin' is the hereditary but impersonal fault of Adam's descendants, who have sinned in him (Rom. v. 12). It is the loss of grace, and therefore of eternal life, together with a propensity to evil, which everybody must, with the assistance of grace, penance, resistance and moral effort, repress and conquer. The passion and death of the Son of God has redeemed the world from the hereditary curse of sin and death. Faith in these truths, which in your country are today the butt of the cheap derision of Christ's enemies, belongs to the inalienable treasury of Christian revelation."

    Objection: Perhaps Fr. Ratzinger does not know what the Catholic Church teaches on Original Sin?
    Response: Despite the obvious absurdity of such an objection, we will respond to it nonetheless. As a priest and putative bishop, Fr. Ratzinger has every responsibility in the world to be informed about the Catholic Church's teachings, especially if he presumes to instruct others in the Catholic Faith. And as the supposed "enforcer of orthodoxy," a position he held from 1981 until 2005 under John Paul II, it was his very job day in and day out to know Catholic teaching inside out. So the objection regarding supposed ignorance is absolutely untenable.

    But even if Fr. Ratzinger should in one place or another teach the true meaning of original sin and its transmission by natural generation, the fact that he has denied it so conspicuously in a sermon that was, in part, on this very topic (the book 'In the Beginning...' is a collection of Lenten sermons) shows his true colors. For look at the warning of Pope Pius VI in 1794 (bold print added):

    Pope Pius VI, Apostolic Constitution "Auctorem Fidei" (1794)

    "[The Ancient Doctors] knew the capacity of innovators in the art of deception. In order not to shock the ears of Catholics, they sought to hide the subtleties of their tortuous maneuvers by the use of seemingly innocuous words such as would allow them to insinuate error into souls in the most gentle manner. Once the truth had been compromised, they could, by means of slight changes or additions in phraseology, distort the confession of the faith which is necessary for our salvation, and lead the faithful by subtle errors to their eternal damnation. This manner of dissimulating and lying is vicious, regardless of the circuмstances under which it is used. For very good reasons it can never be tolerated in a synod of which the principal glory consists above all in teaching the truth with clarity and excluding all danger of error.

    "Morever, if all this is sinful, it cannot be excused in the way that one sees it being done, under the erroneous pretext that the seemingly shocking affirmations in one place are further developed along orthodox lines in other places, and even in yet other places corrected; as if allowing for the possibility of either affirming or denying the statement, or of leaving it up the personal inclinations of the individual – such has always been the fraudulent and daring method used by innovators to establish error. It allows for both the possibility of promoting error and of excusing it.

    "It is as if the innovators pretended that they always intended to present the alternative passages, especially to those of simple faith who eventually come to know only some part of the conclusions of such discussions which are published in the common language for everyone's use. Or again, as if the same faithful had the ability on examining such docuмents to judge such matters for themselves without getting confused and avoiding all risk of error. It is a most reprehensible technique for the insinuation of doctrinal errors and one condemned long ago by our predecessor Saint Celestine who found it used in the writings of Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and which he exposed in order to condemn it with the greatest possible severity. Once these texts were examined carefully, the impostor was exposed and confounded, for he expressed himself in a plethora of words, mixing true things with others that were obscure; mixing at times one with the other in such a way that he was also able to confess those things which were denied while at the same time possessing a basis for denying those very sentences which he confessed.

    "In order to expose such snares, something which becomes necessary with a certain frequency in every century, no other method is required than the following: Whenever it becomes necessary to expose statements which disguise some suspected error or danger under the veil of ambiguity, one must denounce the perverse meaning under which the error opposed to Catholic truth is camouflaged."

    This is what we hope to have accomplished by exposing Fr. Ratzinger's denial of the Catholic teaching on original sin.

    Side Note: Given what Fr. Ratzinger says here about original sin, try to think about what this does to the dogma of the necessity of baptism for salvation and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.


    Offline MyrnaM

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6273
    • Reputation: +3629/-347
    • Gender: Female
      • Myforever.blog/blog
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #86 on: July 31, 2010, 12:15:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Side Note: Given what Fr. Ratzinger says here about original sin, try to think about what this does to the dogma of the necessity of baptism for salvation and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.




    Defide De fide teachings, if I were SSPX, I would spend hours on end, to verify this information.  

     :scared2:  What are you defending?
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline wallflower

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +1984/-96
    • Gender: Female
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #87 on: July 31, 2010, 12:41:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: wallflower
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote
    My understanding of the sedes though, is that there is a blanket statement or judgment made across the board that no NO is or could possibly be Catholic. In that case there would be no doubt that their baptism was invalid (beyond whatever year the sedes believe the NO started).


    When Christ instituted the sacrament of Baptism, along with the other sacraments.  They were instituted by Christ and belong to Christ. But He founded the Catholic Church, and committed His religion to her only.  One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. If the novus ordo person administer Baptism validly, it is because one need not be a priest, therefore if the Baptism was done properly even within the novus ordo, the person is Baptized into the Catholic Church, because they alone own the sacrament, through Christ.   The person is not Baptized into novus ordo or Protestant sect but the Catholic church.  Yet, it still must be done properly, which is my point.

    As Dawn pointed out, there are too many questions these days as to whether it was done properly or not.  

    Since Baptism could only be administered ONCE, an all out Baptism as you worded it would not be correct, on the chance it was done properly.


    Right. Which is why the argument that a Novus Ordo person CAN BE a Catholic still stands. Dawn's position of doing a full baptism for her husband and children makes sense from the sede standpoint that no NO could be Catholic. But you just contradicted yourself saying on one hand that a NO could receive a true baptism, yet on the other hand, no NO can be considered Catholic in SV chapels. This is not consistent. In your mind, can a NO be a Catholic or not? Or is there doubt, in which case, some are and some are not?


    There is no contradiction, just misunderstanding.  Since there is only One Lord, One Faith and One Baptism, all those properly baptized are Catholic.  Since the Sacrament was given to the Catholic Church ONLY, and a priest is not necessary to baptise.  
    So, all babies within the novus ordo properly baptized are Catholic, no doubt about it. ALL  Laity properly baptized  who retain the Faith are Catholic.  However the Modernist,  be they be religious or laity, although baptized Catholic, are not practicing the Catholic Faith, because Modernism is a heresy. Heresy puts you outside the Church.    Just as your neighborhood mainstream Protestant Church, their babies are Baptized Catholic, since a priest is not necessary, and if the baptism was done properly, they are also Catholic babies, but when their use of reason kicks in, although still baptized Catholic, they are practicing Protestants and because of their heresy, they too are put outside the Church.  
    Do you consider then, your local Protestants, Catholic, or do you see them as Protestants?  By your logic it seems that everyone in the world who was ever properly baptized are Catholic, and again, although they were baptized Catholic for reasons explained, (not be me, but the catechism books on baptism) above, they left the teachings of Christ for a newer man made religion, they no longer are practicing Catholics.  CMRI in the same way sees the novus ordo, because of their heresy, as being outside the Church.   If they are without heresy, why is there a SSPX, why not send your children to their Catholic schools, why not just attend their “Mass”.  I guess you might say novus is a mixture of Catholics and non-catholics,  truth and error.  Not my definition of the One, True Church.  
    I have read here many times that even SSPX considers heretics within the novus ordo church.  A heretic is not a Catholic, although baptized Catholic.  They have left the Catholic church for a new religion.  


    The bolded is the piece I was missing from the rationale. From that standpoint then it would make sense to automatically consider NO non-Catholic yet give conditional baptisms. I disagree of course. Not in its entirety but at least in so far as I believe this is much more complex than a simple, willed sect breakaway.

    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +47/-2
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #88 on: July 31, 2010, 12:43:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • See Myrna, they spend hours defending things like this, denial of dogma. Anyone who recognizes Ratzinger as Pontiff does this. Now  watch the snideful remarks about us sedes start again.
    That is alright with me. I am so happy with my priest and Chruch and faith. I have more friends than I ever did now that I am sedevacantist. Not exactly the sad sacks they like to paint us as are we Myrna?

    Offline wallflower

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1866
    • Reputation: +1984/-96
    • Gender: Female
    Question for Myrna
    « Reply #89 on: July 31, 2010, 12:55:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Dawn
    See Myrna, they spend hours defending things like this, denial of dogma. Anyone who recognizes Ratzinger as Pontiff does this. Now  watch the snideful remarks about us sedes start again.
    That is alright with me. I am so happy with my priest and Chruch and faith. I have more friends than I ever did now that I am sedevacantist. Not exactly the sad sacks they like to paint us as are we Myrna?


    Why? Why was this comment necessary? I've read enough snide remarks (the quoted being one of them) going BOTH ways in here that no side has a leg to stand on in accusing the other side of snide remarks.