Author Topic: Question for Myrna (Read 7173 times)

Caminus · « **Reply #15 on:** July 30, 2010, 11:52:21 AM »

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CMRI, does not recognize novus ordo as Catholic but a new religion.

Which article of faith do they officially repudiate or deny?

Emerentiana · « **Reply #16 on:** July 30, 2010, 11:55:25 AM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: gladius_veritatis
Quote from: MaterDominici
If they really treat them like Protestants when they walk in the door, I wouldn't be surprised if many of them walked right back out.

They do not...the crossover is actually quite simple and painless.

This is actually one of the main practical points made in favor of the Guerardian thesis versus 'strict' sedevacantism -- and it is one the strict sedes NEVER touch (wisely, too, IMO).

You lost me there... I might have to employ Google to figure out what you're talking about.

(ADD: Google found me an explanation, written by ... YOU!)

I will say, though, I've heard various things about sede chapels such as "they make you sign a paper agreeing to ..." or "if you go elsewhere, you can't come back". Practically speaking, though, is there really a bouncer at the door?

That might be SSPV, but not most sede chapels, and certainly not CMRI. SSPX had a "watcher" here in the Montana chapel I attended, that watched everyone that might have a thought of attending a sede mass. Thats happened to me. The priest listened to this "watcher". He was suspicious of me taking parishioners about the to CMRI mass we have here. Out I was booted.
The SSPX in the Post Falls area are very afraid of CMRI. They will not allow their parishiioners to attend our masses. One of our churches is only about 5 miles away. On the other hand, Fr Benedict Hughes of our church there, does NOT forbid the parishioners to go to SSPX. They have a 5PM mass on Sunday, and the CMRI parishioners may go there if they choose! No cultish behavior in the Northwest with CMRI!
Ive heard that there are bouncers in the SSPV chapels. They will boot you out if you are SSPX or CMRI. Thats cultish behavior!

SJB · « **Reply #17 on:** July 30, 2010, 01:19:04 PM »

Quote from: Gladius Veritatis

I am NOT saying you should encourage your granddaughter to go to receive communion when you know her beliefs are not correct...I am just saying that any trad priest would have his hands full trying to explain/justify his actions (via Catholic principles, law, and norms of conduct) if he were to publicly refuse her comunion.

This may help ...

Quote from: Woywod

696. Every baptized person not barred by law can and must be admitted to holy Communion. (Canon 853.)

Here is McHugh and Callan on the refusal of unworthy persons:

Quote from: Moral Theology, McHugh and Callan

2678. Administration to Unworthy Persons.-Since material cooperation with sin is lawful for a sufficient reason (see 1515 sqq.), one may administer a Sacrament to an unworthy person when refusal would cause a greater evil than ministration. This happens in the following cases:

(a) when refusal will necessitate a more wicked sacrilege (viz, injury to a Sacrament or the minister himself). This case occurs when the minister knows the subject's unworthiness only from the latter's sacramental confession, and hence cannot exclude him without violation of the seal;

(b) when the refusal will bring on more widespread evils (viz., discouragement of the use of the Sacraments). This happens when the subject who asks the Sacrament is not publicly known as a sinner, but his request is public, so that a refusal will amount to a defamation of him by the minister. If priests had the right to inflict public disgrace on those who approached the Sacraments, it is easily seen what grave scandals and disorders would follow, and that a ready excuse would present itself for personal spite and neglect of religion. Our Lord administered Communion to Judas rather than betray his secret guilt to the other Apostles.

I'm not saying all NO attendees are unworthy, merely pointing out how difficult the Church makes it for a priest to refuse the sacraments, even to a truly unworthy person.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #18 on:** July 30, 2010, 01:31:25 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

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CMRI, does not recognize novus ordo as Catholic but a new religion.

Which article of faith do they officially repudiate or deny?

First of all, in my note here, I did say that some within the novus ordo may have the Faith. I doubt they learned it from their so-called Catholic school, I doubt they learned it from the pulpit either. In fact, when I left the novus ordo, I brought a traditional catechism book with me, and showed the priest, and he said, "THAT IS OUTDATED" so I ask myself how can the Faith be OUTDATED!

These people that do have the Faith, either retained what they learned, passed it on to their family, learned it on their own through reading older books.

Omission of all the article of Faith are missing from the novus ordo church. They doubleSpeak, they will tell you, oh yes, we believe the Creed. Yet, do they teach it! No!
It is very easy to point to the Apostle Creed and say, we believe, the religious will say. Don't forget the Protestants also believe in the Apostles Creed.

My granddaughter is not the first novus ordo child I questioned that attends a mainstream Catholic church.

If you don't believe me, go and question some children.

Caminus, your children are precious, would you send them to your neighborhood mainstream Catholic school?

If not, why not?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #19 on:** July 30, 2010, 01:43:30 PM »

SJB, it breaks my heart, that I keep her in the pew, when I have her at Mass, once or twice a year.

Are you saying I should allow her to go and receive Communion, when she does not realize she is receiving Our Lord. Then, through no fault of her own, she attends novus ordo and receives bread the rest of the year.

If I took her up to the altar, CMRI, would give her Communion unknowingly, to them.

Caminus · « **Reply #20 on:** July 30, 2010, 01:56:12 PM »

Myrna, some novus ordo schools are better than others. It's hit and miss, more missing than hitting. I think your justified disdain for liberalism has exaggerated the truth just a little. The liberal Catholic doesn't deny the faith per se, rather they injure the faith and are enemies of the Church. You seem to think that the only reason to abstain from the school is postulating a new religion or heresy. That's just not reality. The last two things, believe it or not, do not render one outside the Church, nor someone an heretic. I think you would be surprised at the amount of destruction a man can do while still inside the Church externally professing the same religion that traditional Catholics profess. Augustine made a list of evildoers that would still be members of the Church. The SV would have kicked them all out (in mind). Add to this the fact that liberals, modernists, rationalists, etc. are in positions of authority. Why do I refuse to allow my children to attend a novus ordo school? For the above reasons but that doesn't mean they practice a "new" religion in the strict sense of the term.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #21 on:** July 30, 2010, 02:14:04 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Caminus, your children are precious, would you send them to your neighborhood mainstream Catholic school? If not, why not?

He knows we are in the midst of an apostasy -- he used the word just the other day -- yet there are, apparently, no actual apostates and no doctrines are actually denied by anyone in any meaningful way...

The devastation is all just an illusion...an effect that is universal, enormous, catastrophic and yet lacks any real, proportionate cause...

MyrnaM · « **Reply #22 on:** July 30, 2010, 02:21:12 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

Myrna, some novus ordo schools are better than others. It's hit and miss, more missing than hitting. I think your justified disdain for liberalism has exaggerated the truth just a little. The liberal Catholic doesn't deny the faith per se, rather they injure the faith and are enemies of the Church. You seem to think that the only reason to abstain from the school is postulating a new religion or heresy. That's just not reality. The last two things, believe it or not, do not render one outside the Church, nor someone an heretic. I think you would be surprised at the amount of destruction a man can do while still inside the Church externally professing the same religion that traditional Catholics profess. Augustine made a list of evildoers that would still be members of the Church. The SV would have kicked them all out (in mind). Add to this the fact that liberals, modernists, rationalists, etc. are in positions of authority. Why do I refuse to allow my children to attend a novus ordo school? For the above reasons but that doesn't mean they practice a "new" religion in the strict sense of the term.

Next question from me would be, if all you say above is true, why does the pope in Rome allow it?

Please don't tell me he is not aware of what is going on!

SJB · « **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2010, 02:36:50 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

SJB, it breaks my heart, that I keep her in the pew, when I have her at Mass, once or twice a year.

Are you saying I should allow her to go and receive Communion, when she does not realize she is receiving Our Lord.

No. I'm very uncomfortable with a layman advising anyone when or when not to communicate.

Quote

Then, through no fault of her own, she attends novus ordo and receives bread the rest of the year.

I'm confused. Does she not believe in the Catholic teaching of the real presence? Does she deny transubstantiation?

Quote

If I took her up to the altar, CMRI, would give her Communion unknowingly, to them.

Why do you have to "take her to the altar"? Have you ever suggested she speak with the CMRI priest?

SJB · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2010, 02:38:27 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: MyrnaM
Caminus, your children are precious, would you send them to your neighborhood mainstream Catholic school? If not, why not?

He knows we are in the midst of an apostasy -- he used the word just the other day -- yet there are, apparently, no actual apostates and no doctrines are actually denied by anyone in any meaningful way...

The devastation is all just an illusion...an effect that is universal, enormous, catastrophic and yet lacks any real, proportionate cause...

How can this possibly be? :smile:

MaterDominici · « **Reply #25 on:** July 30, 2010, 02:47:02 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

CMRI does not refuse people who come in off the street, people that are properly dressed etc., they do not refuse anyone Communion unless they know for sure they are not Catholic.

It's standard not to refuse Communion to someone that you don't know anything about. But, the question remains, when Joe shows up on Sunday, introduces himself to Father before Mass and says, "I'm a parishioner at St. Anthony's (NO) and I thought I'd check out this Latin Mass you have here," would he then be denied Communion?

And, if so, what would Father expect of him before he would be eligible for Communion?

MaterDominici · « **Reply #26 on:** July 30, 2010, 02:58:54 PM »

Quote from: Emerentiana

That might be SSPV, but not most sede chapels, and certainly not CMRI. SSPX had a "watcher" here in the Montana chapel I attended, that watched everyone that might have a thought of attending a sede mass. Thats happened to me. The priest listened to this "watcher". He was suspicious of me taking parishioners about the to CMRI mass we have here. Out I was booted.

This doesn't clearly say what you did / didn't do. Did they kick you out for having attended the CMRI (which I doubt). Or did they kick you out for discussing sedevacantism on parish grounds? I don't know any church that would freely let you spread information contrary to the beliefs of the parish on church property.

The third option would be that you weren't discussing sedevacantism, per se, only encouraging attendance at the CMRI chapel in general in which case the question would be "why?"

If the CMRI openly allows discussion on the merits and faults of sedevacantism over a cup of coffee after Mass, you should let us all know because I see an opportunity there! :wink:

Dawn · « **Reply #27 on:** July 30, 2010, 03:16:57 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: MyrnaM
CMRI does not refuse people who come in off the street, people that are properly dressed etc., they do not refuse anyone Communion unless they know for sure they are not Catholic.

It's standard not to refuse Communion to someone that you don't know anything about. But, the question remains, when Joe shows up on Sunday, introduces himself to Father before Mass and says, "I'm a parishioner at St. Anthony's (NO) and I thought I'd check out this Latin Mass you have here," would he then be denied Communion?

And, if so, what would Father expect of him before he would be eligible for Communion?

Absolutely. When we first attended Mass with our priest we were not allowed to go up for Eucharist and he told us that flat out. And, then that week he came over to our home and sat at the kitchen table for over three hourse teaching and making certain that we knew our Faith before we could receive Eucharist. And, yes then he did conditionally Baptize each and every one of us (Me as my mother was not certain of any of the circtumstances in regards to my baptism).
And, if he had not done those things my quest to find a True priest would have carried on.

Dawn · « **Reply #28 on:** July 30, 2010, 03:32:32 PM »

oops that should read three hours.

BTW he also made sure that my Grandmother was well aware of the falsehood of the Novus Ordo before she could receive Eucharist. He said that if she still intended to support her Novus Ordo parish and recognize that man-made false religion than he would not be able to help her. She knows the truth. She does not like it, or understand how they could be so dasterdly to set up a false religion,but she knows.

Arborman · « **Reply #29 on:** July 30, 2010, 03:34:17 PM »

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But Mater's point...and Matthew's...and mine...is that no one in Traddieland has ANY authority to say that so-and-so (ensnared in the Novus Ordo) is, in fact, outside Holy Church.

I am so glad to see this! This has been on my mind a lot the last few days.

The CMRI or SSPV has no authority to deny Communion to any Catholic who is a state of grace. They do not have the authority to say the NO is invalid and it is mortally sinful to attend it. This is their position as I heard it expressed on traditional Catholic radio.

I have now completely rejected the Sede position.