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Offline Cantarella

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Question for Lover of Truth
« on: March 27, 2015, 12:24:31 PM »
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    You are the one who does not know the difference between "manifest" and "formal".  If you want to debate SV start a new thread in a different forum.



    Lover of Truth, please enlighten my ignorance. After all, it is a spiritual work of mercy, right?

    So what is the difference between "manifest" and "formal" heresy?.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Question for Lover of Truth
    « Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 12:37:02 PM »
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  • I wouldn't waste my time.

    LoT is not sincerely seeking the truth.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Question for Lover of Truth
    « Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 01:05:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    You are the one who does not know the difference between "manifest" and "formal".  If you want to debate SV start a new thread in a different forum.



    Lover of Truth, please enlighten my ignorance. After all, it is a spiritual work of mercy, right?

    So what is the difference between "manifest" and "formal" heresy?.  


    You finally have the humility to admit it and seek guidance.  I was hoping when I pointed it out to you in the past that you would take opportunity to find the answer for yourself.  I was somewhat surprised because you try to teach others in regards to an issue that is far more complicated than knowing the difference between "public" heretical word, writing or action and "a Catholic" who dissents from the teaching of the Catholic Church.

    Manifest is public, not private or occult. Formal is when one is pertinacious in their error.  The technical theological description would be one who is willfully blind or culpabilis dingbateous.  

    A PUBLIC HERETIC

        Webster's first definition of Public is "exposed to public view".

        A heretic who is not an occult heretic is a public heretic. One is a public heretic if his heresies are known or knowable (not hidden, private or secret such as being written in a diary).

        We live in a world where the truth is considered a lie and lies are truth, this is the case for the vast majority (I'm not talking qualified theologians here) of people in existence, which includes professed non-Catholics, those in the conciliar Church and traditionalists. So people (those who are paying attention) can be immersed in heretical teachings and not notice, but their not being able to smell a heresy when it is right under their nose, does not unheresy (I have a spell-check, Webster has not accepted my suggestions for new words yet) a heresy, nor does it make such a public heresy unpublic. The heresy is still a heresy plain and simple.

        Many know through basic Catholic truth that Father Ratzinger (False-pope benedict xvi) taught heresy as did his Vatican II predecessors. It is not just the sedevacantists that know this but most of the traditional non-sedevacantists and many of the conciliarists, who know the Catholic Faith and acknowledge and admit that the apostasy begins from the head, but do not or will not draw the logical, sainted and defined conclusion of this fact. Therefore to say that the majority of people have to know it is a heresy before he can be considered a public heretic is relativistic thinking. To depend upon the majority of conciliarists to care, let alone know about it, is making the truthfulness of truth dependent on whether the majority of people know truth or not, it becomes another meaningless term subject to the whims of society.

        This reminds me of the supposedly thought-provoking question that asks whether a tree falling in the woods makes a sound if no one hears it. There is no mystery to that. It makes the same sounds it makes when people do hear it. But the tree in question would be a "private" sounder rather than a "public" one. And the world could safely go on as if that tree did not make a sound. Father Ratzinger can sing in the shower, "Limbo does not exist, infants do not have to be baptized, all religions or no religion at all saves, the Bible teaches error" with great glee and excitement, but this would not be to the detriment of the visible unity of the Catholic Church.

        However...his public heresies are a detriment to the Church and in fact contrary to what a valid Pope can do. This Divine Law should be known and understood, but isn't, because as mentioned before, the world is immersed in error.

        So now we arrive at that great conundrum that vexes so many today.

    FORMAL/MATERIAL?

        In all my readings of all the Doctors and theologians before V2 I have not come across anyone insisting that in order for a purported Pope to lose his office (if he ever held it in the first place) he must be a formal heretic. If there are any that appear to have given credence to this distinction (I would like to see it), it would be a rarity and would seemingly make all the rest appear careless for "leaving out" such an important distinction.

        Unfortunately, modern writers in the traditional movement have thrown this stipulation into the mix. For the "recognize and resisters" it is just another wrench to throw into the sedevacantist wheel of truth to prevent the faithful from facing reality and taking the next step which is getting a Catholic Pope. But I believe there are sincere sedevantists themselves who assume this to be the case. One who teaches heresy is not fit to hold ecclesiastical office, regardless of his culpability. His culpability pertains to his damnability but not to his ability to hold ecclesiastical office. If a drunk driver does not see me standing in the middle of the road and runs me over, I'm just as much run over as I would be if someone did it on purpose, neither the drunk driver or the murderer can be trusted to guide the car safely to its destination.

        Therefore, if a purported pope is a public heretic he is not valid matter to run the Church whether he realizes it or not, lest he make a mockery of the promises of Christ. But for those who insist that a purported Pope must be a formal heretic before he loses his office I present the following:

    Quote
       So according to the correct usage of the term, as outlined above, a Catholic can never become a material heretic. He is not invincibly ignorant of the Church's authority, and any conscious dissent from her teachings will therefore make him a formal heretic. Material heretics are exclusively those baptised non-Catholics who err in good faith. That is why Dr Ludwig Ott notes that "public heretics, even those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body of the Church, that is to the legal commonwealth of the Church. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.311)


        Although I do not have to show that Father Ratzinger is a formal heretic in order to prove the sedevacantist finding, I will do so anyway for the objector. Let's face it, not only is Father Ratzinger not ignorant of what the preconciliar Popes have taught but he considers himself to be more enlightened than they are. Any theologian worth his salt will teach that heresy is often the result of pride. A pride that thinks one knows more than everyone else. All teachers of heresy, if not intellectually dishonest, believe they are right. And if Father Ratzinger is right about what he teaches then the true Popes were wrong. Who in their right mind believes the Popes from Peter through Pius XII were wrong? Right. My point is well taken then.

        We are not reading Ratzinger's mind to be aware of this fact as, in addition to taking the Oath Against Modernism several times, which makes him swear not to teach what he constantly teaches, he contradicts previous Papal writings he has read, such as the Syllabus of Errors by Pope Pius IX. Father Ratzinger consciously dissents from the Catholic Church's teachings because he has been made aware of the Church's teachings (in addition to knowing them anyway) and not only continues to dissent but teaches the opposite.

        Since we can only judge externals we see that one is a heretic by his words and/or actions and judge him to be so. So if you claim that Father Ratzinger (B16) is a Catholic, you admit that he must be a formal heretic. But if you insist that he is a material heretic, you admit that he is not a Catholic at all.

        Are you with me? Okay. But remember, a public heretic cannot be Pope. And a non-Catholic cannot be Pope. This is a round about way of saying a public heretic (whether formal or material) cannot be Pope.

        So claiming that Father Ratzinger does not know he contradicts what the Church has always taught is laughable on its face.

        Why? Because trying to decipher whether any individual is a formal or material heretic, unless this is made to be obvious somehow, is doing what only God can do, judge the inner motives and reasonings of a soul. This is why the ultimate conclusion is not based on a man's culpability but rather whether his heresies are public or not, so long as he has been made aware that he contradicts what the Church teaches at least twice and this has been done in the case of Father Ratzinger, countless times, throughout his clerical life.

        Keep in mind that Sedevacantists are not declaring they know the state of his soul, as the "recognize and resisters" would insist we must do, but merely showing the impossibility of such a one to legitimately hold ecclesiastical office. A "public heretic" and a "Pope" is a contradiction of terms. This should be obvious, but Satan and our own warped nature have the world so confused that we no longer know which way is up.

        Also a material heretic when confronted with the fact that what he teaches contradicts what the Catholic Church has always taught, becomes either a Catholic by accepting that teaching or a formal heretic by rejecting it as Father Ratzinger has done. But again, we do not even have to prove he is a formal heretic, but only a public heretic, which has been done, since if he were a private heretic, we would not be talking about his heresies and trying to figure out what that means for the Church and her visible unity of faith.

        In summation, a public heretic, whether formal or material, has to be avoided and must not be acknowledged as head or even as a member of the Church. To do otherwise would be to admit that the gates of Hell can prevail and that the Rock upon which Christ built His Church can be the very Rock that destroys it.

    ----
    From someone more qualified:

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2007/10/10/a-pope-as-a-manifest-or-public-heretic/

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    A Pope as a “Manifest” or “Public” Heretic

    QUESTION: In 2004 the SSPX Canadian publication “Communicantes” published “Sedevacantism,” a lengthy critique of that position by Fr. Dominique Boulet. One of his principal arguments against sedevacantism was that, whatever you may think about the post-Conciliar popes, they are not really “manifest,” “public,” or “notorious” heretics, as canon law understands those terms.

    What’s your response to this? And how are these terms defined?

    RESPONSE: The key theological principle behind sedevacantism is found in the treatises of pre-Vatican II canonists and theologians and may be summed up as follows: If a pope as a private individual embraces some heresy and then professes it to others openly in some fashion — theologians use various terms to characterize this heresy: “public,” “notorious,” “manifest,” or “openly divulged” — he puts himself outside the Church and automatically loses his office.

    Father Boulet, like so many other anti-sedevacantist controversialists, makes two errors: (1) He confuses the sin of heresy with the crime of heresy, and (2) He confuses generic terms applied to heresy before the 1917 Code of Canon Law (manifest, notorious, public, etc.) with the more specific meanings these terms were given after the 1917 Code.

    I. HERESY: CONFUSING
    “SIN” WITH CANONICAL “CRIME”
    ———————————————————————-

    The principal flaw in Fr. Boulet’s argument — and one that runs through his lengthy article from beginning to end — is that he utterly confuses two aspects of heresy:

        (1) Moral: Heresy as a sin (peccatum) against divine law.

        (2) Canonical: Heresy as a crime (delictum) against canon law.

    The moral/canonical distinction is easy to grasp by applying it to abortion, which likewise can be considered under the same two aspects:

        (1) Moral: Sin against the 5th Commandment that results in the loss of sanctifying grace.

        (2) Canonical: Crime against canon 2350.1 of the Code of Canon Law that results in automatic excommunication.

    Fr. Boulet, like so many other anti-sedevacantist controversialists, seems to think it is the second aspect of heresy — heresy as a crime against canon law — that renders a public heretic incapable of becoming a true pope or that automatically strips him of his office if he falls into heresy after has already been elected to it.

    Consequently, Fr. Boulet quotes at great length criteria from the Code of Canon Law that are used to determine when a crime is imputable, public, notorious, pertinacious, etc. Any “heresies” of the post-Conciliar popes, he maintains, do not meet these canonical standards, so (he concludes) there is nothing to the sedevacantist case.

    But all this is barking up the wrong tree. It is not heresy in the second sense (crime against canon law), but heresy in the first sense (a sin against divine law) that prevents a public heretic from becoming or remaining pope. This is clear from the teaching of pre-Vatican II canonists like Coronata:

        “III. Appointment to the office of the Primacy [i.e. papacy]. 1° What is required by divine law for this appointment: … Also required for validity is that the appointment be of a member of the Church. Heretics and apostates (at least public ones) are therefore excluded.”…

        “2° Loss of office of the Roman Pontiff. This can occur in various ways: … c) Notorious heresy. …“If indeed such a situation would happen, he [the Roman Pontiff] would, by divine law, fall from office without any sentence, indeed, without even a declaratory one.” (Institutiones Iuris Canonici [Rome: Marietti 1950] 1:312, 316. My emphasis.)

    Divine law removes the heretical pope. One need not therefore look to all the criteria laid down for crimes against canon law.

    To attempt to do so in the case of a pope, moreover, is to commit a “category error” — to ascribe to something a property it could not possibly have. A pope, as Supreme Legislator, is above canon law, and therefore cannot commit a crime against it, so no evil act he commits can be properly called a “crime.” It can only be called a sin, because he is subject to the divine law alone.

    II. MISTAKEN ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT
    “MANIFEST,” “PUBLIC,” “NOTORIOUS”
    ——————————————————————–-

    Most anti-sedevacantist controversialists over the years have, like Fr. Boulet, made exactly the same error. Why? The answer lies in their false assumptions about the meaning of technical terms.

    The long line of theologians and canonists over the centuries who examined the question of a heretical pope distinguished between two general types of papal heresy according to the “notice” or “publicity” it received.

        (1) “Occult” (i.e., secret or hidden) heresy. (E.g., written in a diary, uttered in private to a few discreet people, etc.)

        (2) A second type of heresy that is not occult. (E.g., published in an official docuмent, proclaimed in a public discourse, etc.)

    For the latter, the various theological and canonical treatises did not always use an identical term, but instead employed a variety of expressions to describe the papal heretic or his heresy: “public,” “notorious,” “manifest,” “openly divulged,” etc.

    These were generic terms that did not have a uniform meaning in sources and authors before the 1917 Code, and were simply used in contradistinction to “occult.” (See F. Roberti, “De Delictis et Poenis,” schemata praelectionum [Rome: Lateran 1955] 80–1) Authors writing after the 1917 Code about the question of a heretical pope continued to use the same generic language to distinguish between occult and non-occult heresy.

    Because of this, Fr. Boulet and many others like him have fallen into anachronism about the terminology. They mistake this generic language used by authors writing about papal heresy before the Code, and subsequently taken up even by authors after the Code, as an indication that all the minute criteria of the Code’s criminal legislation must be satisfied before a loss of papal office can kick in.

    This, alas, is a fatal error, so none of their arguments on this point can be used against the sedevacantist case.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online Ladislaus

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    Question for Lover of Truth
    « Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 01:08:21 PM »
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    A PUBLIC HERETIC

        Webster's first definition of Public is "exposed to public view".


     :roll-laugh1:

    Webster the Catholic theologian

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Question for Lover of Truth
    « Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 01:12:36 PM »
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  • http://www.sedevacantist.com/pertinacity.html


    Pertinacity: Material and Formal Heresy

    by John S. Daly


    What is Pertinacity?


    If a baptised person expresses an opinion in conflict with Catholic dogma, it is plain that the material element of heresy is present: error in the intellect contrary to the Catholic Faith. But of course it does not yet follow that the sin of heresy has been imputably committed, or that the person in question is in fact a heretic.

    From the position of Canon Law a single question must be asked: does the person realise that his opinion conflicts with Catholic teaching? If he does, he is canonically deemed to be a heretic. Canon 1325 defines a heretic as a baptised person, still calling himself a Christian, who “pertinaciously denies or doubts any of the truths which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.” And the word “pertinaciously” is understood by canonists to mean that the person is conscious of the conflict between his opinion and the Church's teaching. (Cf. Noldin: Theologia Moralis, vol. II, n.29; de Siena: Commentarius Censurarum, p.24; Dom Gregory Sayers: Thesaurus Casuum Conscientiae III,iv,18; Suarez: Opera, XII, p.474, ed. Vivès; Bouscaren and Ellis: Canon Law, p.902)

    It is important to avoid a misunderstanding at this point. It is well known, that Canon law, like civil law, is concerned with externally ascertainable facts and their external effects. It is not directly involved with what takes place in the individual's soul, for until the internal act is externalised, it cannot be known with certainty. In technical terms, moral imputability is said to belong to the internal forum, known with certainty only to the individual and his Creator, and to the confessor in the sacrament of Penance. Canonical imputability and its effects belong to the external forum and are assessed in accordance with outward words and deeds, not with hidden interior dispositions. For this reason Canon Law provides that when a Catholic commits an external infraction of a law, he is presumed for legal purposes to have done so knowingly and culpably, unless and until he should prove the contrary (Canon 2200/2).

    Relying on this principle, some have imagined that when a heretical statement is made, it is presumed to have been pertinacious - i.e. that the person knew his statement to be heretical and made it nonetheless. This view is quite mistaken. Canon 2200/2 requires guilt (culpability) to be presumed whenever an infraction of the law takes place, but of course it does not authorise the presumption of the infraction itself. One must first know that the law has indeed been broken, at least externally, before Canon 2200/2 can have any application.

    And as the Canon Lawyers understand it, this pertinacity, this consciousness that one's opinion is in conflict with Catholic teaching, is essential to the canonical delict of heresy. Canon 2200/2 does not entitle anyone to presume it. If an individual makes a heretical statement, we have already said that we must find out whether he is aware that his opinion conflicts with the Faith. We may now add that we must establish the answer to this question without any help from Canon 2200/2 and its presumption of guilt in the external forum. Otherwise we should be presuming not just imputability, but the crime itself, which would be plainly contrary to justice.

    To clarify this point, let us state it in slightly different words. A heretic is a baptised Christian who does not accept the Catholic rule of faith, i.e. who rejects the Church's authority in forming his religious beliefs. Whenever anyone rejects the Church's rule of faith, he is canonically presumed to do so culpably. But the mere denial of a dogma does not always establish that the Catholic rule of faith is being rejected. Perhaps the miscreant does not realise that his stated opinion is contrary to the Faith. To clarify that question, Canon 2200/2 offers no help. It cannot be legitimately applied to settling, even presumptively, that question.

    So how can the individual's awareness that his view is unorthodox be established? There are in fact several ways. He may say so in as many words, or unmistakably imply that he is departing from Catholic belief. Alternatively, it may be evident from his status and education, and the particular dogma he rejects, that he cannot be unaware of the facts. Otherwise, it is open to anyone to draw to his attention the Catholic teaching which conflicts with his stated opinion, to give him the opportunity of correcting his position. Once the Catholic doctrine is sufficiently made known to him, persistence in denying or doubting it establishes pertinacity and therefore the canonical delict of heresy.

    All this seems clear and simple enough. If misunderstandings and conflicting interpretations have arisen, it is chiefly because the Church's laws on this topic, and the classic theological texts dealing with it, consider heresy as the act of a person who has once been a Catholic and has recognised the Church's divine authority to teach. Such a person, of course, if he consciously departs from that teaching, is inevitably guilty in the eyes of God of a mortal sin against the virtue of faith. (Denzinger 1794 and 1815)

    The Relevance of Good Faith

    But of course there are baptised persons who consider themselves Christians and yet have never recognised the authority of the Catholic Church. Some of them have never been presented with any reason for submitting to the Catholic Magisterium as the divinely established rule of faith. Some have barely heard of God's Church. Thus there exist baptised non-Catholics who think themselves to be disciples of Jesus Christ, yet are separated from His Church by invincible ignorance of what it is. And these persons all fall within the canonists' definition of heretics, for they openly reject what they know the Catholic Church teaches - and why should they do otherwise as they know of no reason to accept it?

    At this point the moral theologian parts company with the canonist. Heresy, he argues, is per se a sin; the sin of rejecting a truth revealed by God. But Protestants in good faith who reject Catholic teaching are guilty of no sin by so doing because they do not realise that these truths have been revealed by God. And if they have not culpably committed the sin of heresy, by what right can one label them heretics?

    Quite rightly the canonist replies that all such individuals are presumed guilty in the external forum by virtue of Canon 2200/2 as they have committed an external infraction of the law requiring assent to any Catholic dogma (Canon 1323/1). Their moral guilt in the internal forum the canonists will leave to moralists to theorise about and to confessors to assess when necessary. Their own task is simply to evaluate the external fact that a given baptised person publicly rejects the Catholic rule of faith, and as such is deemed for all practical purposes to be excommunicated and outside the Church.

    Here some individuals have become confused between the external, canonical facts, and the internal moral ones. By reference to some of the classic theological writers, they argue that “pertinacity” is the element that makes heresy culpable, an imputable sin. And they rightly observe that Protestants who are in good faith are not culpable or guilty of imputable sin for their rejection of Catholic doctrine. Therefore, it has been argued, pertinacity is wanting to the case. And since this pertinacity is admitted by canonists themselves to be essential to the material act of heresy, it certainly cannot justly be presumed. That would be presuming the fact of the crime itself, not just its guilt. Moreover, it is argued, since pertinacity implies moral guilt in the rejection of Catholic doctrine, if Protestants in good faith are to be canonically presumed pertinacious and excommunicated, the same must apply to Catholics who by an innocent mistake advance an opinion which they do not realise to be in conflict with a dogma. Thus Catholics who pronounce on theology with insufficient knowledge would be forever incurring excommunication in the external forum by virtue of presumed pertinacity.

    What terrible confusion! And it has been only aggravated by canonists who have tried to reply without spotting the root of the disagreement, for they have sometimes conceded the last point of their adversaries, allowing Canon 2200/2 to apply to the mere outward statement of a position which the Church rejects. Thus they admit that one may presume an individual to be in conflict with the Church, even though he is a good sound Catholic and merely guilty of a mistaken formulation. And they concede this because they see no other way of defending what they know to be true - namely that Protestants, no matter if they be in invincible ignorance, are presumed excommunicated and deemed to be outside the Church's external communion.

    Two Distinct Senses of the Word Pertinacious

    The nub of the problem - we say it again - is that the word pertinacity has been differently used by different writers. Each use is defensible, and the distinction is largely an accident of history. But now that it exists, it is crucial not to apply to this term in one sense statements made about its other sense.

    The canonists have defined pertinacity as recognition or awareness of the conflict between one's belief and that of the Church. As such, pertinacity is essential to the canonical delict of heresy; it is part of the matter or (technically) corpus delicti of heresy. Hence it must be proved before anyone can be considered a heretic, and Canon 2200/2 with its presumption of culpability does not help to prove it, for it applies only when the law is already externally infringed. And if Catholic doctrine is inadvertently denied by one who does not notice his error, there is not even an external infraction of the law requiring orthodox belief.

    Moralists, on the other hand, consider pertinacity as the formal constituent of the sin of heresy - the disordered state of the will in adhering to a belief opposed to the Faith. As such, pertinacity never exists except where the heretical belief is imputably sinful. And for that, not one, but two things are necessary. First the doctrinal authority of the Church must be sufficiently proposed to the individual concerned. Secondly the specific teaching of the Church which conflicts with his error must be sufficiently proposed to him. In other words, according to the definition, pertinacity entails awareness of two distinct truths: not just that the Church rejects the opinion advanced, but also that the Church is the divinely-appointed custodian of God's revelation to men.

    There is no doubt that the definition of the moralists is the older one. If the ancient authorities (St Augustine: Contra Manichaeos, De Civ. Dei,l . XVIII, c. 51, n. 1; St Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologiae, II-II, q. 11, a. 2; Cajetan, ad locuм; St Alphonsus Liguori: Summa Theologiae Moralis, l. 3, n. 19), who used the word “pertinacity” for the perverse will of one who sinfully rejects a part of the Catholic Faith, do not advert explicitly to the two conditions mentioned above as necessary to make a heretical statement pertinacious, it is because they were writing of erstwhile Catholics who fell into heresy. And one who has once been a Catholic is necessarily aware of the Church's teaching authority. He may have failed to advert to the conflict between his stated opinion and a given teaching of the Church, but he cannot be invincibly ignorant that his opinions ought to be in conformity with Catholic teaching. So it is not surprising to see some writers define pertinacity as the formal element of the sin of heresy, the perverse state of will, while mentioning only one necessary condition for this: awareness of the Catholic teaching with which one's stated belief conflicts. With regard to Catholics and former Catholics, that is exact. With regard to persons baptised outside the Church, and perhaps invincibly ignorant of her teaching authority, however, it is an over-simplification due to factors we have already noted.

    Could it be argued that the canonists' use of the term “pertinacity”, with a slightly different meaning from that of the classic theological usage, is responsible for the confusion? Doubtless the canonists would say that they needed a word for the deliberate decision to hold a belief contrary to that of the Church and that pertinacity was chosen as being the classic term, so defined by many of the theologians who gave it its currency. Hence any confusion is due rather to the fact that theologians had made two statements about pertinacity (viz. 1. That is consists in awareness of the conflict between one's opinion and Catholic doctrine, and 2. That it is the formal constituent of the imputable sin of heresy) of which, with reference to Catholics who fall into heresy, both are true, but with reference to baptised persons who are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith, both of which cannot be true. In other words the confusion is due to the historical accident that theologians equated two concepts which, in the cases they were considering, invariably coincided, but which in a distinct category of cases, to which they did not advert, do not necessarily coincide.

    At any event, further confusion can be avoided by bearing constantly in mind that all canonists are agreed as to what “pertinaciously” means as this word is used in the current text of Canon 1325/2. It means that the miscreant is aware of the conflict between his belief and Catholic doctrine, and is therefore synonymous with knowingly.

    Thus a baptised person raised in invincible ignorance of the Catholic Church is nevertheless a pertinacious heretic in the sense of Canon 1325/2. In the eyes of God he is not morally guilty, but owing to his external infraction of the law requiring all the baptised to accept Catholic doctrine, he is presumed in the external forum (by Canon 2200/2) to be culpable and to have incurred excommunication. He certainly does not belong to the institutional Church.

    If theologians continue to use the word “pertinacity” to designate the perverse state of the will which makes the profession of a heretical statement an imputable sin, they must recognise that their usage, insofar as it applies to non-Catholics who are or may be invincibly ignorant of the Church's divine authority, does not coincide with canonical usage.

    On the other hand, to admit a possibility which canonists would apparently be very reluctant to accept, theologians might wish to argue that Canon 1325/2 has been misunderstood and that the pertinacity it requires for heresy is moral guilt. According to this understanding a Protestant in good faith is not, canonically speaking, a heretic, as he is not morally guilty. As he is certainly deemed by the Church in the external forum to be excommunicated, this must be attributed to a presumption of law - namely that Canon 2200/2 does authorise the presumption of pertinacity. But as this presumption clearly does not apply to Catholics who inadvertently advance an unorthodox proposition, some distinction must be found whereby Canon 2200/2 allows the presumption of pertinacity on the part of invincibly ignorant non-Catholics, but not on the part of Catholics who mistakenly make heretical statements while retaining orthodox interior dispositions. And as the Code lends no support to such a distinction, it is clear why the canonists have unanimously rejected any attempt to construe the Code in this way.

    Agreement as to Facts: Disagreement as to Their Expression

    The confusion and disagreement we have referred to must not be allowed to cloud the perfect agreement which subsists among all approved theological and canonical authors as to the relevant facts, irrespective of how the current Code of Canon Law is to be understood as stating them. This agreement is best shown by summarising the correct doctrine without using any of the vocabulary which has shown itself liable to ambiguity, and this we think can be done as follows:

    Every Catholic must accept the Catholic rule of faith, by believing whatever the Church teaches that God has revealed. Any statement made by a baptised individual which reveals that he does not accept the Catholic rule of faith and knowingly rejects some part of the divine revelation which the Church proposes for our belief, proves that he is not a Catholic, but a heretic, and deemed to have incurred excommunication.

    By contrast an unorthodox statement which may have been due to mere inadvertence proves nothing of the sort. One who makes such a statement is not proved to be a heretic until the Catholic doctrine is sufficiently drawn to his attention and he remains obstinate in his position.

    The baptised individual who is truly shown to reject the Catholic rule of faith will be guilty of sin if the Church's authority has been sufficiently proposed to him - which will always apply to one who has previously been a Catholic, but will not apply to non-Catholics if they are invincibly ignorant - but not otherwise. But whether or not he is guilty of sin, his rejection of the Catholic rule of faith attests that, for all external purposes, he must be deemed an excommunicated heretic, not a Catholic.

    True Rôle of Canon 2200/2 and its Presumption of Malice

    Having established these facts, we may now note the true function of Canon 2200/2 in relation to the delict of heresy. This canon rules that when a law is outwardly infringed, the infraction is presumed culpable for the purposes of the external forum. Should a Catholic make an unorthodox statement, it does not entitle anyone to presume for any purpose that his unorthodoxy was deliberate if that is not already evident. But once established that the unorthodoxy was conscious, Canon 2200/2 does require the presumption that the departure from orthodoxy was not merely simulated, due to fear or mental derangement. And with regard to non-Catholics, Canon 2200/2 provides that they are for practical purposes deemed to be culpable for their heterodoxy and therefore excommunicated - a legal presumption which in no way alters the fact that they may be invincibly ignorant of the Church's authority, and therefore, in the internal forum, guiltless. Either way the Church, as a visible institution juridically able to recognise her members, cannot consider such people to be Catholics.

    Material and Formal - More Ambiguity

    The preceding discussion leads logically to consideration of the analogous ambiguity, relevant to the same topic, which has perhaps been the source of even more serious confusion than the word “pertinacious”; namely, the distinction between material and formal heresy.

    Every material object exists by virtue of the union of two elements - the stuff it is made of (matter) and the shape the stuff is made in (form). Thus a wine-glass is made out of glass - its matter; but that alone is not sufficient to make it a vessel suitable for drinking wine from; it also needs its form - the shape of a wine-glass.

    Scholastic philosophy has taken the distinction of the two constituent elements of natural objects, and applied it, by extension or analogy, to other entities. Its best known theological application is to sin. Each sin is said to consist of its matter (the physical act) and its form (the disordered act of the will). And this application is very useful because it facilitates recognition of the cases in which the matter of the sin is not accompanied by its form. Thus a man who shoots his neighbour has performed the physical act proper to the sin of murder. But if he had blamelessly mistaken his neighbour for a wild animal, his intention was not disorderly. The matter of the sin was present, but not its form. We have come to say that such a man has sinned materially, but not formally. But what that really means is that he is not guilty of sin at all, for in the absence of the formal element, no entity can exist. A material sin is not really, or fully, a sin, any more than a pane of glass is a drinking vessel until it is moulded to the shape of one.

    Application of these Terms to Heresy

    With regard to the sin of heresy, it was said that the matter was the intellectual error involved in assenting to a heterodox proposition, while the form was the obstinate attachment of the will. And once again this distinction usefully clarified the fact that one who assents to a heterodox proposition by inadvertence, without obstinate attachment of the will, was not guilty of the sin of heresy.

    What muddied the waters was the misleading linguistic development by which material heresy was said to make the person professing it a material heretic. No conclusion could seem more natural to the layman, but it does not in fact follow in logic. A retired lion-trainer is not, after all, a man who trains retired lions! And a serious problem arises when one designates as a material heretic anyone who assents, without moral guilt, to a heretical proposition. The first is that you have created a category which comprises two quite distinct sorts of member and you therefore run the risk of confusing the two. For according to that definition, a good Catholic who inadvertently holds a condemned doctrine, not realising that it is condemned is a material heretic. And so too is a Protestant if he is invincibly ignorant of the Church's status. And while it is true that there is a resemblance between the two cases (for both indeed hold in their minds unorthodox doctrine and neither is culpable in the eyes of God for doing so), nevertheless there is also a huge gulf between them. For the former is a Catholic, habitually adhering to the Catholic rule of faith, whereas the latter is a non-Catholic, with no knowledge of the correct rule of faith and tossed about on the treacherous sea of private opinion.

    The inevitable consequence of this misleading assimilation of two such different sorts of person is that they will gradually come to be considered truly alike. This could happen in either of two ways. Mistaken Catholics could be regarded as no better than Protestants in good faith (and some “hard-liners” have practically taken this view, arguing that the most innocent error creates a presumption of heretical animus - a notion we have already seen to be false). More common has been the no less calamitous view that a Protestant, if invincibly ignorant of the status of the Church, is no worse off than a Catholic who inadvertently makes an incorrect doctrinal statement - as though adherence to the Catholic rule of faith, i.e. submission to the Magisterium, were irrelevant, whereas in fact it is what juridical membership of the Church depends on.

    Correctly, the material element involved in being a heretic is conscious dissent from the Catholic rule of faith, while the formal element is the perverse state of the will which this entails. The distinction thus made, a Catholic who inculpably advances a heretical proposition by inadvertence may perhaps be said to have advanced a material heresy; but he cannot be called a material heretic. He is not a heretic in any sense. A heretic is one who dissents altogether from the Catholic rule of faith, and he will be called a material heretic if he is invincibly ignorant of the authority of the Church which he rejects, and a formal heretic if the Church's authority has been sufficiently proposed to him, so that his dissent from it is culpable. (This is clearly explained by Cardinal Billot: De Ecclesia Christi, ed. 4, pp. 289-290)


    So according to the correct usage of the term, as outlined above, a Catholic can never become a material heretic. He is not invincibly ignorant of the Church's authority, and any conscious dissent from her teachings will therefore make him a formal heretic. Material heretics are exclusively those baptised non-Catholics who err in good faith. That is why Dr Ludwig Ott notes that “public heretics, even those who err in good faith (material heretics), do not belong to the body of the Church, that is to the legal commonwealth of the Church. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.311)

    And in fact Dr Ott's preferred expression - “heretics who err in good faith” is the one used in the Code of Canon Law (Canon 731), which completely eschews the potentially misleading term “material heretics”

    Effects of Heresy

    Before closing this discussion of the nature of heresy, some mention should perhaps be made of its effects.

    Canon 1325 brands as a heretic whoever, while still calling himself a Christian, pertinaciously (i.e. consciously) doubts or denies any de fide truth. Anyone to whom this applies is deemed not to be a Catholic if he manifests externally his heresy. (If it is purely internal, he has committed a mortal sin against the virtue of faith, but remains within the Church's communion, and without censure. - Cardinal Billot, op. Cit. pp. 295 et seq.)

    All heretics incur automatic excommunication by virtue of Canon 2314. This must be carefully distinguished from their expulsion from the Church - one may be excommunicated and yet remain a member of the Church, or one may be outside the Church but nevertheless not excommunicated, as in the case of baptised children raised in heresy, between the age of reason (about seven) and the age of fourteen, before which it is not possible to incur excommunication.

    One who commits heresy through ignorance of the duty to believe all that the Church teaches, will not incur the excommunication unless his ignorance was “affected” - i.e. deliberately sought (Canon 2229). But in the external forum he will be deemed excommunicated until he prove the contrary. (In practice, converts who claim, on grounds of ignorance, not to have incurred excommunication are usually absolved conditionally to avoid a complicated judicial procedure to assess their claim.)

    Heretical clerics, like laymen, incur excommunication; and infamy if they publicly join a sect. Unlike laymen, they are also to be deprived of any benefice, dignity, pension or office in the Church unless they repent on being admonished; and if a second admonition proves fruitless, they are to be deposed. In fact, if their heresy is public, their offices are forfeited automatically without any admonition (Canon 188/4). And if the heretical cleric not only doubts or denies a dogma, but publicly joins a heretical sect, he will not only lose his office ipso facto and incur infamy; he will also, should admonition fail to amend him, be degraded. (Canon 2314)


    John S. Daly
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #5 on: March 27, 2015, 01:37:29 PM »
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  • Thank you for replying but I was kind of hoping a short definition on your own words instead of cut and paste treaty. I should have known better as it is evidently your style of posting. There is nothing from what you posted that I did not already know but just things I disagree with, of course, from my non-sedevacantist position. I am still confused on why you accuse me of not knowing the difference between manifest and formal. I don't know where you get that from and I am certain I know the difference between material and formal heresy, which you unnecessarily included.  

    But anyway, let's go with this:

    Quote

    Manifest is public, not private or occult. Formal is when one is pertinacious in their error.  The technical theological description would be one who is willfully blind or culpabilis dingbateous


    Yes. I agree but respond this:

    1. Can it be a case where formal heresy is occult, not manifest?

    2. How the Church determines pertinacity?

    It is OK if you can't respond in your own words, just provide the link and I will read. No need to cut and paste anything unless you are able to quickly identify the answer and point it out. Don't try to hide your poor understanding on the topic behind other's writings. You should be able to respond to questions in one or two sentences, when asked to.

    I have no credentials as a teacher, by the way. I am just an anonymous poster participating in an online forum.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    « Reply #6 on: March 27, 2015, 02:40:50 PM »
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    You are the one who does not know the difference between "manifest" and "formal".  If you want to debate SV start a new thread in a different forum.



    Lover of Truth, please enlighten my ignorance. After all, it is a spiritual work of mercy, right?

    So what is the difference between "manifest" and "formal" heresy?.  


    You finally have the humility to admit it and seek guidance.  


    Pardon me...  :roll-laugh1:
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #7 on: March 30, 2015, 04:38:29 PM »
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    Thank you for replying but I was kind of hoping a short definition on your own words instead of cut and paste treaty. I should have known better as it is evidently your style of posting. There is nothing from what you posted that I did not already know but just things I disagree with, of course, from my non-sedevacantist position. I am still confused on why you accuse me of not knowing the difference between manifest and formal. I don't know where you get that from and I am certain I know the difference between material and formal heresy, which you unnecessarily included.  

    But anyway, let's go with this:

    Quote

    Manifest is public, not private or occult. Formal is when one is pertinacious in their error.  The technical theological description would be one who is willfully blind or culpabilis dingbateous


    Yes. I agree but respond this:

    1. Can it be a case where formal heresy is occult, not manifest?

    2. How the Church determines pertinacity?

    It is OK if you can't respond in your own words, just provide the link and I will read. No need to cut and paste anything unless you are able to quickly identify the answer and point it out. Don't try to hide your poor understanding on the topic behind other's writings. You should be able to respond to questions in one or two sentences, when asked to.

    I have no credentials as a teacher, by the way. I am just an anonymous poster participating in an online forum.


    Those are my own words.  It was from a part of an article I wrote.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 04:41:30 PM »
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    Thank you for replying but I was kind of hoping a short definition on your own words instead of cut and paste treaty. I should have known better as it is evidently your style of posting. There is nothing from what you posted that I did not already know but just things I disagree with, of course, from my non-sedevacantist position. I am still confused on why you accuse me of not knowing the difference between manifest and formal. I don't know where you get that from and I am certain I know the difference between material and formal heresy, which you unnecessarily included.  

    But anyway, let's go with this:

    Quote

    Manifest is public, not private or occult. Formal is when one is pertinacious in their error.  The technical theological description would be one who is willfully blind or culpabilis dingbateous


    Yes. I agree but respond this:

    1. Can it be a case where formal heresy is occult, not manifest?

    2. How the Church determines pertinacity?

    It is OK if you can't respond in your own words, just provide the link and I will read. No need to cut and paste anything unless you are able to quickly identify the answer and point it out. Don't try to hide your poor understanding on the topic behind other's writings. You should be able to respond to questions in one or two sentences, when asked to.

    I have no credentials as a teacher, by the way. I am just an anonymous poster participating in an online forum.


    Pertinacity I guess would be obstinate, holding to a heresy after already knowing what the Church teaches or innocently coming to a heretical conclusion and holding to it after having been warned once or twice.  I linked the article, which I would trust more than my own words, on pertinacity, in response to right after my original response.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 06:03:20 PM »
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    Those are my own words.  It was from a part of an article I wrote.  


    And, being a sedevacantist, you presumably consider yourself bound by the old Canon Law which prohibits Catholics from writing theological articles without permission and without the necessary imprimatur / nihil obstat?

    Offline Malleus 01

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    « Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 09:37:38 PM »
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  • Tell me why all the vitriol?   I come here once or twice a year and find the same things being discussed - one side trying to disprove Sedevacantism and the other side trying to show the error in Sedeplenism , Have any   of you taken  a step back and wondered why in the world there is no UNITY in Catholicism these days ?   Tell me this - is it one of the MARKS of the TRUE CHURCH or isnt it?    So then , ask yourselves this - if indeed it is ONE of the Marks of the TRUE CHURCH ( and should anyone want to argue it is already defined by an Ecuмenical Council)  Then tell me where in all of your works here are found the works of unification?    

    I think one of the strongest arguments for SEDEVACANTISM is the utter lack of UNITY

    If there is a TRUE Pope - then and only then will there be unity and all these squabbles would cease.

    Dont bother answering as I probably will not be back for another 6 months as I have embraced asceticism in response to these Heresies now afflicting Holy Mother the Church

    But I did want to wish all of you a Blessed and fruitful Holy Week May all of my fellow CATHOLICS HERE embrace the Holiest of WEEKS and obtain a better understanding on a Spiritual Level just what Our Lord purchased for each and every one of us with every last drop of his Precious Blood on the wood of the Holy Cross

    May each of you profit by it...................

    Pax Vobiscuм





    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 10:33:19 PM »
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    I think one of the strongest arguments for SEDEVACANTISM is the utter lack of UNITY

     If there is a TRUE Pope - then and only then will there be unity and all these squabbles would cease.


    Based upon this premise, we can deduce that in times of the Protestant Reformation, Pope Pius IV must have not been a "true Pope" either then  :rolleyes:, after all, those were times of great disunity within the Church. Such was the lack of unity that the Catholic Church lost entire nations over it and never got them back. There are hundreds of Protestants sects and schims that broke away from the Church as a result. Entire countries lost to heresy and schism! The reform is considered the first Modernist great blow against the Church, followed by the French and Bolshevik revolutions. From this reasoning, it follows that the Popes who lived through these periods of prominent disunity, must have not been "true Popes" then.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #12 on: April 01, 2015, 11:30:15 AM »
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  • I would not want things in my own words though.  I would want it in the words of the Church.  I don't trust myself which is why I do not think anyone should trust me based upon my own words.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #13 on: April 01, 2015, 03:08:01 PM »
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    I would not want things in my own words though.  I would want it in the words of the Church.


    Well, dailycatholic.org (and the like) is NOT the word of the Church. Guaranteed. A humble and careful study of Holy Scripture, the Holy Fathers, Council pronouncements, and ecclesiastical docuмents from the highest reputation would be far better than wasting precious time with yellow propaganda.
     
    Quote from: Lover of Truth

     I don't trust myself which is why I do not think anyone should trust me based upon my own words


    And you do very good, no worries about that. Nobody does anyway.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #14 on: April 01, 2015, 05:50:42 PM »
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    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I would not want things in my own words though.  I would want it in the words of the Church.


    Well, dailycatholic.org (and the like) is NOT the word of the Church. Guaranteed. A humble and careful study of Holy Scripture, the Holy Fathers, Council pronouncements, and ecclesiastical docuмents from the highest reputation would be far better than wasting precious time with yellow propaganda.
     
    You use the truth that slices you to bits against me like a retarded monkey imitating a human.  Take your own advice and get real.

    Quote from: Lover of Truth

     I don't trust myself which is why I do not think anyone should trust me based upon my own words


    And you do very good, no worries about that. Nobody does anyway.


    There is that wonderful feeneyite charity again.

    You don't speak for everybody, you speak for yourself which puts you in bad company.

    Try Catholicism on for size someday.   You might like it.  And pray to our Lady which you dare to use an avatar to help change you from being the complete opposite of what she was and is.  You are less lady like than Rosanne Barr (I'm sorry I'm being uncharitable, I mean Rosie O'Donnell).  

     Any half sane person that tunes into these discussions must be immediately turned off when they see the babies and their "nanny nanny boo boo" shenanigans.  Daily Catholic presents the Mass of the day and approved daily devotions.  My articles present the teaching of the Church.  You dislike anything that presents the truth against your heretic hero.  Whether it be Aquinas, Bellarmine, Fenton, the Popes or Daily Catholic who makes what they teach accessible.  You ask for something in my own words and then then tell me you are glad that I don't share my own words.  You epitomize all the negative Feeneyite connotations.  I have a good Feeneyite friend that I can get in sane civil conversations with  But most I have tried to have discussions with are of your ilk, ignorant in the extreme and mean.  Good luck with wherever that is leading you because luck is all you are running on.

    Someone like you that does posts not knowing the difference between "manifest" and "formal" daring to come on acting like she knows what she is talking about would be hilarious in the extreme were it not so tragic.  People see through your nonsense.  They won't tread here because they know it is useless and that is just how people like you want it.  The fewer people with the truth on this blog the better for uncharitable, mean, unladylike, heretics like you so you can be comfortable in your lies.  But you will see where they get you in the end.  

     
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church