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Author Topic: Question for Ladislaus  (Read 2654 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: Question for Ladislaus
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2021, 07:48:18 PM »
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  • Thanks for the link, Cera


    Offline Emile

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    Re: Question for Ladislaus
    « Reply #61 on: April 24, 2021, 09:47:42 PM »
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  • I hope posters are opening up the link and read all the reply's.  From αnσnymσus on 2/1/18 that there are two more subsequent docuмents.
    My computer will not allow me to copy, open up the links, and post the links. Perhaps someone can open up those links and post the links.
    The main docuмent does indicate interference of a papal ɛƖɛctıon by a secular government.

    Quote
    February 1, 2018 at 10:35 PM
    This docuмent is from 1958. Here are a couple of subsequent docuмents.

    From 1960
    http://www.ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/docuмents-and-statements/Jєωιѕн/1123-isaac1960

    From 1961
    http://www.ccjr.us/images/stories/AJC_Anti-Jєωιѕн-Elements-in-Catholic-Liturgy.pdf

    Both those links are broken; Error 404.

    .

    I think that the αnσnymσus poster included these links to show what happened shortly after the 1958 conclave as they do not directly mention Siri.  

    The two links no longer work, but I think this is the first article referred to:

    https://tinyurl.com/at4wnpsa


    The second link is a letter written by Eric Werner as 1 of 3 letters sent to the Vatican in 1961 by the American Jєωιѕн Committee (AJC). I can no longer find a copy of his letter, the only thing that I did find is a description:

    Anti-Jєωιѕн Elements in Catholic Liturgy
    The file linked below is the text submitted by the American Jєωιѕн Committee to the Vatican Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity, headed by Cardinal Augustin Bea, in preparation for the Second Vatican Council. The previous September, Pope John XXIII had instructed Cardinal Bea to prepare a draft for the Council on the church's relationship to Judaism. This, the second of three AJC reports sent to the Vatican before the Council, was authored by Dr. Eric Werner, professor of sacred music and one of the founders of the School of Sacred Music at Hebrew Union College-Jєωιѕн Institute of Religion.

    https://ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/docuмents-and-statements/roman-catholic/second-vatican-council/naprecursors/ajc1961nov17

    If memory serves (please correct me if I am wrong), some of Werner's letter was put almost verbatim into Nostra Aetate and/or some of the other VII docuмents. Perhaps our ((friends)) no longer wish it to be so visible.

    For a timeline on the ((swedes)) infiltration and changing of the Church's teaching straight  from the horses mouth:

    https://ccjr.us/dialogika-resources/docuмents-and-statements/roman-catholic/second-vatican-council/naprecursors
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer


    Offline Emile

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    Re: Question for Ladislaus
    « Reply #62 on: April 24, 2021, 10:09:52 PM »
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  • For anyone interested, Gary Giuffre did interviews with Judith Sharpe that explain the Siri theory quite well. See this thread:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/cardinal-siri-gary-guiffre-interview-with-isoc-all-4-parts/msg713247/#msg713247
    Patience is a conquering virtue. The learned say that, if it not desert you, It vanquishes what force can never reach; Why answer back at every angry speech? No, learn forbearance or, I'll tell you what, You will be taught it, whether you will or not.
    -Geoffrey Chaucer

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Question for Ladislaus
    « Reply #63 on: April 24, 2021, 10:23:05 PM »
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  • So maybe the "jailers" of Siri made it impossible for him to do anything, including die ahead of his time. Sυιcιdє wasnot an option for martyrdom, I'd say. I'm sure he wanted to be martyred at some point. If fact I'm sure he was a martyr of sorts.
    .
    According to the Siri thesis, not only was Siri not a martyr, but he was basically akin to someone who offered incense to pagan idols out of fear. He was afraid to tell the world that he was the true pope, and instead recognized false popes as if they were true popes, while seeing the Church get ransacked by heretics and do nothing to prevent it. This is explained by saying he was afraid someone would hurt his family, or maybe afraid someone would hurt him, but it was fear that prevented Siri from telling the Church that he was the pope, while allowing John XXIII and far worse Paul VI to lead almost the entire world into apostasy while he said not one word to prevent it.
    .
    Siri was not a man who spent his life in prison. He was free to come and go as he pleased. I have seen video footage of him on YouTube attending some conference of bishops or cardinals some time in the sixties, I forget the event. But he was not gagged or shackled, he was sitting freely in some sort of large arena with his fellow bishops. There were even people who believed Siri was pope, who visited him in the 1980s, I believe, who spoke with Siri and asked him if he were pope. Siri even refused to tell them anything specific about what happened in the conclave of 1958, refusing to tell them he had been elected, if he had been. I believe that was Fr. Khoat who went to interview him. Cardinal Siri could have told him everything if he had been elected, but he was too afraid of being murdered.
    .
    Cardinal Siri was not a martyr by any definition of the term.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question for Ladislaus
    « Reply #64 on: April 24, 2021, 10:39:43 PM »
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  • I’ve explained this a dozen times now.  Siri did not think he was the Pope because from his subjective perspective he resigned.  But this was due to pressure.  While it was morally a free act in that he could have refused, it was canonically-speaking not a free act, since it was done under duress.  He basically admitted, by refusing to deny it, that he had been elected. And the threats were not likely limited to him or even his family but were made against the entire Church.

    And that’s a total distortion about why he didn’t talk to Fr. Khoat.  He said he couldn’t talk because he was bound by the oath of secrecy regarding the conclave.  He felt ... wrongly ... that he would be excommunicated if he talked.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question for Ladislaus
    « Reply #65 on: April 25, 2021, 07:18:40 AM »
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  • I haven’t been ignoring those docuмents.  I’ll look at them more closely later but on first reading I don’t see it as conclusive proof of interference ... although I’m sure there was some both from the U.S. and Russia.  This unnamed source requested that the U.S. exert influence on the American Cardinals to go against Siri and some of the other conservative Cardinals because they were known to support Siri and this source felt they would have been bad for the Church in not being progressive enough. Could this source have been a Communist agent?  There’s no indication whether the U.S. actually did so.  We know from Bella Dodd that the Communists had plants in the clergy including some Cardinals, with Tisserant being suspect.  Tisserant was also alleged to have been in communication with B’nai B’rith during that fateful conclave.  And of course Roncalli’s Communist connections and sympathies are well known.