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Author Topic: question for fellow sedevacantists  (Read 3047 times)

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Offline curiouscatholic23

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question for fellow sedevacantists
« on: August 08, 2011, 03:03:48 AM »
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  • To Sedevacantists: Do you think it is a sin, either mortal or venial, to attend an Una cuм SSPX mass?

    I have heard different things from different sede bishops. Some say it is a mortal sin if I go to the SSPX, others, like Bishop Pivarunas, say no. So which is it?

    I'm really confused, and I guess the hardest part is that the closest sedevacantist parish is quite some distance away, while the SSPX is in my city.

    I don't know what to do and I have started staying home. The idea of staying home for an extended period of time quite frankly terrifies me, as I feel I need the sacraments. I keep thinking about what this bishop told me regarding "una cuм mass = mortal sin if I knowingly went after I have learned all the issues." Yet there is also this voice in my head that says mabye he is going over the top, and since my INTENT is to just receive the sacraments and NOT acknowledge Ratzinger as pope, than maybe it wouldn't be a mortal sin.


    Offline TKGS

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 07:03:31 AM »
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  • I agree with Bishop Pivarunas.  That's not to say that for some individuals who could be fooled by certain priests should not avoid non-sedevacantist clergy or that attendance at the Masses of non-sedevacantist clergy is the best option.

    The fact is that, during the present crisis, clergymen have to be evaluated on an individual basis.  Since the identity of the pope at any given moment in history is not a matter of doctrine, and one cannot bind another's conscience on the matter, especially now, avoidance of "una cuм" Masses cannot be a moral issue.

    If a particular priest is validly ordained by a validly consecrated bishop, then attendance at his Mass is morally acceptable.  What may become a problem is if the priest preaches against the Catholic Faith or imposes novel moral standards (such as, for example, commanding the faithful to abstain from meat all the time or avoiding "una cuм Masses", etc.).  It is true that some sedevacantist clergy will withhold the sacraments from the faithful who do not adhere to their prudential decisions in all things (essentially excommunicating them); I actually think these are the more dangerous clergy.


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 08:17:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    The fact is that, during the present crisis, clergymen have to be evaluated on an individual basis.


    Yes!

    Quote from: TKGS
    It is true that some sedevacantist clergy will withhold the sacraments from the faithful who do not adhere to their prudential decisions in all things (essentially excommunicating them); I actually think these are the more dangerous clergy.


    Yes!

    As I have said time and time again, those Priests and Bishops who have attained to Holy Orders without the consent of the Roman Pontiff are bereft of jurisdiction in the external forum and therefore cannot publicly bind individual consciences to their private theological opinions or decisions, except insofar as these are in accord with the teachings of Holy Mother Church and her customs and laws (but in such cases it is the latter that urges the individual Catholic conscience, and not some inherent public authority possessed by these clerics, as they have none). Otherwise (for example, in categorically pronouncing that it is a mortal sin to attend an SSPX Mass) they commit an aberration insofar as they pretend to go beyond their competence, and stand in danger of losing their credibility before the faithful and of being bereaved of the opportunity of exercising the supplied jurisdiction that they do have. For without the laity to whom to administer the Sacraments, what reason is there for the "independent" clerics to exist at all? The clerics are to draw to themselves the layfolk and demonstrate their competence to work as Pastors of souls with the perfection of their interior lives as manifested in good works and comportment that shews a sanctity and supernatural charity that rightly becomes the clerical state, and their learning in the sacred sciences.

    This is most especially true regarding the sedevacantist Bishops, who attained to the sacred episcopacy with the claim that it is the exigencies of present circuмstance that have compelled them to do so, for the greater glory of God and the salvation of souls, during the vacancy of the Apostolic See. If they are earnest and of good will in their intentions, then it follows that they ought to recognize the perilous position wherein they find themselves as episcopi vagantes in the eyes of Canon Law and are to comport themselves with all humility and self-abnegation, applying to themselves with a very salutary and strict scrupulosity the words of Our Lord, "You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them. It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant. Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many" (St. Matt., ch. xx., 25-28).

    If these Bishops fail to comport themselves thusly, they run the risk of being criticized as cultists, and rightly so.

    The sedevacantist Bishops are the only Catholics to whom I can say, "There is no such thing as excessive scruples." At least this is my personal opinion. Would to God that all sedevacantist clerics work out their salvation seized with devout terror and trembling (Phil., ch. ii., 2), that they may be endued with greater light and grace and thereby lead the layfolk over whom they presume to exercise pastoral care to Christ all the more efficiently, instead of lording over them as if they had the competence and jurisdiction of the clergy who ruled and shepherded the faithful by authority of the Apostolic See and the local Ordinaries in times past.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 08:29:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: curiouscatholic23
    Do you think it is a sin, either mortal or venial, to attend an Una cuм SSPX mass?


    There is no solid reason to believe it is a 'sin' of any kind.

    Quote
    I have heard different things from different sede bishops. Some say it is a mortal sin if I go to the SSPX, others, like Bishop Pivarunas, say no. So which is it?


    The bishops who say it is a 'mortal sin' do not even have sufficient authority to tell anyone, including the priests who waste their time and talents working 'under' them, what he should eat for breakfast.  Their arguments are unconvincing because...their 'kingdoms' are crumbling and they are making things up as they go along!

    As an example of making things up on the opposite end of the spectrum, Bp Dolan has told people more than once that they will be dispensed from the grave duty of fast and/or abstinence if they come to a party he is throwing after some 'special' Mass or other.  The whole thing is a joke -- HE is a joke, and it is not funny.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 08:49:46 AM »
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  • According to DD, he has both the power to declare that it is a mortal sin to go to an SSPX Mass, and to give dispensations in situations where NO ONE EVER granted or received them!  

    "If you want to pig out on a fast day during Lent, that is okay, so long as you do so while attending yet another absolutely-unnecesary Warm-Fuzzy-Fest whereat your already-addled brains and weakened wills shall be further compromised!  The beauty is that even those cult members who know better and don't attend are, by their continual, gutless silence, compromising themselves!  Ha!  Want to eat meat on a Friday, come to sgg.org/cult's Chili-Insanity!  At sgg.org/cult, I am GOD and, as I have been doing for years, I make up the rules as I go along!"

    IOW, curious, don't let such frauds confuse you or make you worry.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Elizabeth

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 08:53:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    Quote from: curiouscatholic23
    Do you think it is a sin, either mortal or venial, to attend an Una cuм SSPX mass?


    There is no solid reason to believe it is a 'sin' of any kind.



    This idea is a product of despair.  If there is any truth to the modern psychological diagnosis called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, these are the souls who will be frightened.

    What should we do, burn all of our missals?  Glue something over the "una cuм" parts?

    Offline SJB

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 09:35:00 AM »
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  • Quote
    What should we do, burn all of our missals?  Glue something over the "una cuм" parts?


    No, just do what the Church tells us to do when a See is vacant, be it a Pope or Bishop. The phrase gets "skipped over", in simple terms. No need to burn any missals.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Lighthouse

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 11:35:45 AM »
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  • An extensive discussion:

    Una cuм

     :reading:


    Offline Pyrrhos

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #8 on: August 08, 2011, 11:55:37 AM »
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  • On the opposite side: Does somebody have an English translation of Mgr. Guerard des Lauriers writing on this subject "Christus Novum Instituit Pascha Se Ipsum Ab Ecclesis Sacerdotes Sub Signis Visibilibus Immolandum"?

    I think his position was the most influential in the "dogmatic non una cuм" world, but Mr. Lane does not even mention him there.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline curiouscatholic23

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #9 on: August 08, 2011, 12:17:16 PM »
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  • How do you completely register so that I can use the messenger feature? Something isn't working.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #10 on: August 08, 2011, 05:12:24 PM »
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  • It takes a week or so, curious...
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline parentsfortruth

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #11 on: August 08, 2011, 05:21:37 PM »
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  • *wonders if this has yet made the posting on the rules of the forum yet....*
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #12 on: August 08, 2011, 05:26:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: evensong
    This is almost certainly not the place for this. But don't know what to do. It say I have a message and when I click it says I'm not an established d member so can't get message, then when I tried to contact Matthew it won't let me, again because I'm not established. Could Matthew or Mater pls let the messages know I will respond when allowed to do so? I  hope I don't get off on wrong foot here by being rude to anyone who wanted to contact me.
    I'm old and ugly but I'm not stuck up!
    I think the wait to be established is a good idea, and will wait as long as it takes. Allowing toxic people to ruin a forum is just a shame. But pls help with the message thing. thank you.


    Quote from: LordPhan


    It takes about a week, the people messaging you should know that, and they probably realized it after the fact.


    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=7794&min=10&num=10

    CathInfo rules -- refresher and summary
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Sigismund

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #13 on: August 08, 2011, 07:56:46 PM »
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  • Wise and insightful words from Hobble, as usual.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Sigismund

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    question for fellow sedevacantists
    « Reply #14 on: August 08, 2011, 07:59:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    According to DD, he has both the power to declare that it is a mortal sin to go to an SSPX Mass, and to give dispensations in situations where NO ONE EVER granted or received them!  

    "If you want to pig out on a fast day during Lent, that is okay, so long as you do so while attending yet another absolutely-unnecesary Warm-Fuzzy-Fest whereat your already-addled brains and weakened wills shall be further compromised!  The beauty is that even those cult members who know better and don't attend are, by their continual, gutless silence, compromising themselves!  Ha!  Want to eat meat on a Friday, come to sgg.org/cult's Chili-Insanity!  At sgg.org/cult, I am GOD and, as I have been doing for years, I make up the rules as I go along!"

    IOW, curious, don't let such frauds confuse you or make you worry.


    GV,

    Can you explain what arguments Bishop Dolan offers to suggest that he has anything even vaguely resembling jurisdiction?  I am sure these reasons will make no sense, but it might be interesting to hear them.  Sort of like witnessing a train wreck can be interesting.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir