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Author Topic: Question for "Feeneyites" ONLY  (Read 1456 times)

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Offline Cantarella

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Question for "Feeneyites" ONLY
« on: May 27, 2014, 10:10:42 AM »
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  • Could a validly water BAPTIZED schismatic Orthodox (or even a Protestant) be saved by last minute Perfect Act of Contrition?

    Why yes? Why not?
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    « Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 10:21:26 AM »
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  • Cantarella,

    Do you consider yourself a "Feeneyite"?


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 11:11:07 AM »
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  • Of course.

    To say otherwise is to deny God's mercy. Consider the workers in the vineyard. Don't be the murmurer who disdains those who arrived at a late hour and resents God for His mercy toward the wayward sheep.



    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 12:14:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Of course.

    To say otherwise is to deny God's mercy. Consider the workers in the vineyard. Don't be the murmurer who disdains those who arrived at a late hour and resents God for His mercy toward the wayward sheep.



    Those in the vineyard all accepted the work that was offered to them, all did the same job for the same reward for the same master.

    OTOH, Prots refuse the work, they therefore get no pay or reward and have a different master - libs usually call this "invincible ignorance" - far as I know, no prot has ever been saved at the last minute via a perfect act of contrition. Anyone know of any?

    I was taught we should expect to die as we have lived aka Rom. 8:13. No, I don't believe that any one who lived outside the Church and dies outside the Church will be saved, certainly not in the last minute. But I'll gladly be wrong if anyone knows of such people, please show us.  

     

     




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 02:29:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Could a validly water BAPTIZED schismatic Orthodox (or even a Protestant) be saved by last minute Perfect Act of Contrition?

    Why yes? Why not?


    Not without converting to the Catholic Faith.  Obviously they could have a deathbed CONVERSION accompanied by perfect contrition.


    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 02:30:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    To say otherwise is to deny God's mercy.


    Thus the "theological" underpinnings of all BoD ... human judgment regarding what would or would not be merciful for God to do.

    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 02:36:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Could a validly water BAPTIZED schismatic Orthodox (or even a Protestant) be saved by last minute Perfect Act of Contrition?

    Why yes? Why not?


    Not without converting to the Catholic Faith.  Obviously they could have a deathbed CONVERSION accompanied by perfect contrition.


    Agreed.

    Does this deathbed CONVERSION to the Roman Catholic Church must be manifested, or is there the remote possibility of being done implicitly?

    Think of a schismatic Orthodox that have even valid orders.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 03:05:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Cantarella
    Could a validly water BAPTIZED schismatic Orthodox (or even a Protestant) be saved by last minute Perfect Act of Contrition?

    Why yes? Why not?


    Not without converting to the Catholic Faith.  Obviously they could have a deathbed CONVERSION accompanied by perfect contrition.


    Agreed.

    Does this deathbed CONVERSION to the Roman Catholic Church must be manifested, or is there the remote possibility of being done implicitly?

    Think of a schismatic Orthodox that have even valid orders.


    Implicit and manifest are not really opposites.

    This conversion could IMO certainly happen in such a way that no one would know about it, such as if the person received some extraordinary lights but was otherwise incapacitated or something.


    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #8 on: May 27, 2014, 03:16:10 PM »
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  • I believe that anyone who is baptized can be saved by perfect contrition, and for those who were not Catholic, by a conversion to the Catholic faith even on their deathbed.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 03:35:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    I believe that anyone who is baptized can be saved by perfect contrition, and for those who were not Catholic, by a conversion to the Catholic faith even on their deathbed.


    Those two parts appear self-contradictory.  There cannot be perfect contrition without supernatural faith.

    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #10 on: May 27, 2014, 03:54:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Those two parts appear self-contradictory.  There cannot be perfect contrition without supernatural faith.

    I miswrote and made my post confusing. Sorry. Of course you are right. One cannot be saved and have perfect contrition without supernatural faith.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #11 on: May 27, 2014, 04:17:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    To say otherwise is to deny God's mercy.


    Thus the "theological" underpinnings of all BoD ... human judgment regarding what would or would not be merciful for God to do.


    The question asked is essentially, "can one who was not Catholic at one time become Catholic before they die?"  "Perfect contrition" contains conversion, one cannot be perfectly contrite and at the same time withhold contrition for not belonging to God's Church.

    This doesn't even touch on BOD.  You have a baptized person who is not Catholic, and the question is "can they become Catholic?"  WE recognize the extraordinary instance of it occurring "at the last second" but there is no qualitative difference in one who converts twenty years before death or twenty seconds before death.  The principle at work here is that God's elect are not snatched from His hands, and He arranges for their salvation.  Salvation itself is a mercy, and to deny that people convert is a denial of God's mercy, which we are guaranteed elects some to Heaven.  To deny that one can convert at the last moment is to deny conversion itself, since the passage of time does not at all disrupt or skew the principle of God's gratuitous election.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    « Reply #12 on: May 27, 2014, 04:27:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Of course.

    To say otherwise is to deny God's mercy. Consider the workers in the vineyard. Don't be the murmurer who disdains those who arrived at a late hour and resents God for His mercy toward the wayward sheep.



    Those in the vineyard all accepted the work that was offered to them, all did the same job for the same reward for the same master.

    OTOH, Prots refuse the work, they therefore get no pay or reward and have a different master - libs usually call this "invincible ignorance" - far as I know, no prot has ever been saved at the last minute via a perfect act of contrition. Anyone know of any?

    I was taught we should expect to die as we have lived aka Rom. 8:13. No, I don't believe that any one who lived outside the Church and dies outside the Church will be saved, certainly not in the last minute. But I'll gladly be wrong if anyone knows of such people, please show us.  



    Protestant's deny that works are efficacious or that they contribute at all or co-operate within God's providence, yes; but that does not mean that they do not DO works.  In this instance given by the OP, one work we are assured of is perfect contrition.  And throughout a given protestant's life, it is perfectly conceivable that they have done other works.  It's certainly not the case that non-Catholics or non-members as such cannot perform works, that proposition is condemned I believe.

    As far as dying as one lived, that is true inasmuch as our hearts harden the more we reject God's grace, but God's grace can move even the most miserable sinner.  

    As I said to Ladislaus, whether conversion happens twenty years before death or twenty seconds before death, the principle of God's mercy to His elect is the same.  You seem to think that there is a "cut off point" where a person can no longer be the recipient of God's mercy and grace to convert-- there is, and that is death.  Not twenty seconds before death, not twenty years before death.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Ladislaus

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    « Reply #13 on: May 27, 2014, 05:36:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    This doesn't even touch on BOD.  You have a baptized person who is not Catholic, and the question is "can they become Catholic?"  WE recognize the extraordinary instance of it occurring "at the last second" but there is no qualitative difference in one who converts twenty years before death or twenty seconds before death.


    Agreed.  While I don't think that God typically works that way in the normal economy of salvation, there's absolutely nothing to prevent God from enlightening a person's mind and giving him a choice right before death of embracing that truth and then granting the grace of perfect contrition.  I'm guessing that the intent of the OP is to investigate whether or not this kind of scenario constitutes an "invisible" joining of the Church because there was no outward profession of said faith, etc.  Not at all.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #14 on: May 27, 2014, 06:16:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Of course.

    To say otherwise is to deny God's mercy. Consider the workers in the vineyard. Don't be the murmurer who disdains those who arrived at a late hour and resents God for His mercy toward the wayward sheep.



    Those in the vineyard all accepted the work that was offered to them, all did the same job for the same reward for the same master.

    OTOH, Prots refuse the work, they therefore get no pay or reward and have a different master - libs usually call this "invincible ignorance" - far as I know, no prot has ever been saved at the last minute via a perfect act of contrition. Anyone know of any?

    I was taught we should expect to die as we have lived aka Rom. 8:13. No, I don't believe that any one who lived outside the Church and dies outside the Church will be saved, certainly not in the last minute. But I'll gladly be wrong if anyone knows of such people, please show us.  



    Protestant's deny that works are efficacious or that they contribute at all or co-operate within God's providence, yes; but that does not mean that they do not DO works.  In this instance given by the OP, one work we are assured of is perfect contrition.  And throughout a given protestant's life, it is perfectly conceivable that they have done other works.  It's certainly not the case that non-Catholics or non-members as such cannot perform works, that proposition is condemned I believe.

    As far as dying as one lived, that is true inasmuch as our hearts harden the more we reject God's grace, but God's grace can move even the most miserable sinner.  

    As I said to Ladislaus, whether conversion happens twenty years before death or twenty seconds before death, the principle of God's mercy to His elect is the same.  You seem to think that there is a "cut off point" where a person can no longer be the recipient of God's mercy and grace to convert-- there is, and that is death.  Not twenty seconds before death, not twenty years before death.


    Yes, God can offer all the graces necessary to change one's heart, and God does that all day long already, and after a life time spent rejecting those exact same graces, what is it that makes you think that after a lifetime of making a habit of rejecting the same graces offered hour after hour, day after day and year after year, that the prot will suddenly have a change of heart and change his habit in his last moments and seek those graces and accept those graces and benefit from those graces all in his last iota of life? Not very logical thinking IMO.

    If in fact he did make a perfect act of contrition, only God would know whether that contrition was acceptable to Him and satisfied for the sins of the prot's whole life, we can never, in this life ever know. At best, our answer must be that we do not know if his perfect act of contrition sufficed to save him or not.

    Because we cannot know if the prot made it, we could pray for that soul in the hope of a "death bed conversion", but I can tell you that I hold out no hope of myself ever making it to heaven that way so I certainly would not hold out hope for some theoretical prot to make it. How about you - do you honestly think you could make it that way?

    Prots are in the wrong vineyard entirely, and of their own free will. Whatever works they do are useless unless they first seek the truth and apply their works in the right vineyard - but they do not seek the truth. Whoever is the master of their vineyard is who they work for, but rest assured, if they die while employed in that vineyard, the reward they receive will not come from Our Lord's vineyard.  

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse