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Author Topic: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility  (Read 10125 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2024, 10:11:49 AM »
A heretic is a former catholic.  A former catholic is not a pagan; they have been baptized and received the sacraments.  They were former members of Christ's Mystical Body.  Their heresies do not erase the baptismal character, nor their catholic training, nor their knowledge of the Faith.  A heretic does not get "downgraded" to a pagan, in spiritual terms.  The only way to define a heretic is by saying "they were a former catholic".  There's no other way.  It's the defining mark of their error.

Agree or disagree, I don't care.  You have a myopic view on many topics, you are unable or unwilling to view things from different perspectives.  Not worth my time.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #126 on: October 01, 2024, 10:31:52 AM »
I'm not.  I'm pointing out the different levels of crimes in canon law.  You are simply generalizing the crimes. 
See?  You're using the word "normally" which is the general rule.  But this means that there are cases where confession IS NOT ALL THAT IS NECESSARY.  There's more required in order to obtain forgiveness.
Yes, *normally* = confession is all that is necessary, and confession is as necessary for the sin of heresy to be forgiven as it is for all mortal sins.

If there is a censure connected with the particular sin of heresy - which would have to have been pronounced to the individuals by the pope or bishop - not any laymen, or if the confessor or bishop judges that the sin requires a public abjuration, then so be it, but that is not normally the case, what that is is a rare or an extraordinary case. Either way, only trad clergy/hierarchy are the ones who are found guilty of sins of that nature these last 60 years. 

If the pope deemed it appropriate for whatever reason, Luther could have received absolution without any abjuration at all. Public abjuration is NOT part of the sacrament.

But there are some things we lay people have zero say in - and insisting heretics MUST publicly abjure their heresy in order for the sin to be forgiven is one of those things. 


Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #127 on: October 01, 2024, 11:05:42 AM »
A heretic is a former catholic.  A former catholic is not a pagan; they have been baptized and received the sacraments.  They were former members of Christ's Mystical Body.  Their heresies do not erase the baptismal character, nor their catholic training, nor their knowledge of the Faith.  A heretic does not get "downgraded" to a pagan, in spiritual terms.  The only way to define a heretic is by saying "they were a former catholic".  There's no other way.  It's the defining mark of their error.

Agree or disagree, I don't care.  You have a myopic view on many topics, you are unable or unwilling to view things from different perspectives.  Not worth my time.
This is what I said:
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What’s more important is that you believe Martin Luther was always a Catholic. This is completely heterodox,

This is what you said:

No, it's right in one sense but wrong in another sense.  It depends.”

A heretic is not a Catholic, period. What you posted above in no way supports what you said here: “No, it's right in one sense but wrong in another sense.  It depends.”

I don’t know if you just try to post something, anything to contradict me, but you’re starting to look really stupid. What is your problem?


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #128 on: October 01, 2024, 11:12:05 AM »
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Yes, *normally* = confession is all that is necessary, and confession is as necessary for the sin of heresy to be forgiven as it is for all mortal sins.
Thank you, captain obvious.

Here's the problem, you are hyper-focused on the forgiveness of the sin (i.e. which only happens through confession...no one is arguing otherwise).  What you are minimizing is the ADDITIONAL penalties which heresy/schism causes, due to canon law.

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If there is a censure connected with the particular sin of heresy
YES!!!  This is what we're talking about.  The grave, serious and extreme cases of heresy/schism which canon law IPSO FACTO imposes on such sins.

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- which would have to have been pronounced to the individuals by the pope or bishop - not any laymen,
many of these censures are automatic, as canon law clearly states.  That's what IPSO FACTO means.  "By the fact" that (person A did x, this is the penalty).

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or if the confessor or bishop judges that the sin requires a public abjuration, then so be it, but that is not normally the case,
:facepalm:  But we're NOT talking about normal cases. 

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what that is is a rare or an extraordinary case.
Yes.  And Martin Luther is a rare case of extreme heresy.  Just like most of the V2 heretics.

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If the pope deemed it appropriate for whatever reason, Luther could have received absolution without any abjuration at all.
The point being, the pope has to decide either way.  Confession alone does not suffice.

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Public abjuration is NOT part of the sacrament.
No one ever said it was.  You're not distinguishing between the CANON LAW penalties of excommunication and the power of confession to forgive sins.

Christ gave the Church the power to bind and loose.  Certain sins (i.e. heresy/schism) have been BOUND by the Church to a greater degree, and require MORE than just confession.  The acts are BOTH sins and also violations of Church law.

If a person is excommunicated in the most extreme degree, they can go to confession and be forgiven, but... they are still not allowed to go to Communion and take part in public worship.  The excommunication is related to the heresy/error of dogma.  The confession is related to the sin.

Again, looking at Martin Luther, he originally started with 99 heresies.  After being summoned to an inquiry, he was corrected and recanted 40 of these.  But he was obstinate in heresy, after being corrected, on the rest.

This whole process, inquiry, investigation took multiple years.  All the while, he was excommunicated....which means, he was not allowed to take part in public worship.  He was on probation, so to speak.  Even if he had gone to confession every single day of this multi-year period.

His excommunication meant he was not a "member in good standing" of the Church.  Again, he was on probation.  Until the Church decided on whether he was obstinate in his heresies or not.

Confession does NOT solve every problem.  That's the whole point.  And Christ gave His Church the power to investigate, inquire and determine serious cases.

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But there are some things we lay people have zero say in - and insisting heretics MUST publicly abjure their heresy in order for the sin to be forgiven is one of those things.
We're insisting on following canon law.  No one is arguing for penalties which don't already exist in canon law.

Do you honestly believe that this "abjuration of heresy" is not part of canon law?

Here's another thing, which you fail to consider:
1.  A firm purpose of amendment is required for forgiveness.  An abjuration of heresy is simply a firm purpose of amendment not to follow error anymore.
2.  A public heretic can be forgiven his sins in confession.
3.  An abjuration of heresy is simply their PUBLIC denial of errors, based on their PUBLIC sins, which is an extension of their firm purpose to reject heresy from now on.

Again, +Vigano's letter was an abjuration of heresy, of sorts.  So was St Augustine's "Confessions".

The Church can require EXTRA things (apart from confession) to be forgiven, just like a priest can require a thief to return property, or a murderer to turn himself in, or a perjurer to recant his lies in court.  So the Church can require a abjuration of heresy.

This is NOT some new concept.  It's part of Church History.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #129 on: October 01, 2024, 11:28:48 AM »
:facepalm:  But we're NOT talking about normal cases. 
Yes we are lol.