Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility  (Read 8296 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12349
  • Reputation: +7847/-2433
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #105 on: September 30, 2024, 03:17:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    And Francis, were he to go to confession - whether he is a pope or not, the majority of the Catholic world recognizes him as such; by virtue of his baptism he is a member of the Church- would have to publicly retract his many sins.  Because his sins are in the public domain, he would be required to issue a public retraction of them.  It would be no different than Madonna were she to go to confession.  Her public sins would require a public retraction.
    Yes, the part about public retraction, or public abjuration of heresy is what Stubborn is missing.

    PUBLIC heresy, PUBLIC schism, etc (i.e. like Martin Luther's) require PUBLIC displays of apology.  This is what canon law says.
    If it's a private matter of heresy/schism (where scandal was minimal) then such can be forgiven through confession alone.

    But Stubborn is just lumping everything into 1 category.  As he normally does.  Lack of distinguishing.

    It's no different than the sin of theft. 
    a.  Yes, you can go to confession.  No, you are not forgiven until you make restitution to the person you stole from.

    Sin of public heresy/schism:
    a.  Yes, you can go to confession.  No, you are not forgiven until you publicly make restitution for your scandal, because your neighbor was hurt due to your sins.

    Offline Godefroy

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 667
    • Reputation: +738/-67
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #106 on: October 01, 2024, 02:38:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • And Francis, were he to go to confession - whether he is a pope or not, the majority of the Catholic world recognizes him as such; by virtue of his baptism he is a member of the Church- would have to publicly retract his many sins.  Because his sins are in the public domain, he would be required to issue a public retraction of them.  It would be no different than Madonna were she to go to confession.  Her public sins would require a public retraction.

    On the issue of a modern pope declaring something ex cathedra, I am of the opinion that the state of grace is required for a pope to make an ex cathedra declaration, since it is ultimately an operation of the Holy Ghost speaking through the pope.  Of course the pope writes the papal bull and then he speaks the truth contained therein.  The question is, Are all the words of the papal bull infallible?  I say no.  If we have no guarantee that all of the words are true, then how can guarantee that some of the words are true?  And the answer is, the qualifying words, "We declare, say, and pronounce...,"  uttered by the pope.
    Would this qualify? 

    "We declare and define Blessed John XXIII and John Paul II to be saints and we enrol them among the saints, decreeing that they are to be venerated as such by the whole Church."



    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14770
    • Reputation: +6101/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #107 on: October 01, 2024, 05:42:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's clear to me that Pius XII placed the sins of heresy, schism and apostasy in a class all their own.  They are not like other sins. Until I see Church docuмents/support on how these specific sins should be handled or treated, it remains "complicated".
    Well, all I can say is start looking. I suggest, seriously, start with searching for sins that are not forgiven in the sacrament of penance, this should shorten your search time considerably.

    I attached a pdf snip from Trent on the Sacrament of penance and Extreme Unction, it's less than 11 pages, hopefully you are able to study it.  Here are a few pertinent quotes:

    On the idea that the penitent must publicly retract his sins...
    "For the rest, as to the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, although Christ has not forbidden that
    a person may,--in punishment of his sins, and for his own humiliation, as well for an example to others as for the edification of the Church that has been scandalized,-- confess his sins publicly, nevertheless this is not commanded by a divine precept; neither would it very prudent to enjoin by any human law, that sins, especially such as
    are secret, should be made known by a public confession."

    Personally, I used to think that in the case of public heretics such as the conciliar popes and hierarchy, a public abjuration of their heresies should be an absolute requirement, but per Trent above, it's not, and what I think doesn't matter - and per Trent I was wrong to think that way.

    On the Reservation of Cases
    Which means sins to which the censure of excommunication is attached reserved to the Holy See. (i.e. only the pope can forgive) is not in force when the penitent is in danger of death....
    "Neither is it to be doubted,--seeing that all things, that are from God, are well ordered-but that this same may be lawfully done by all bishops, each in his own diocese, unto edification, however, not unto destruction, in virtue of the authority, above (that of) other inferior priests, delivered to them over their subjects, especially as regards those crimes to which the censure of excommunication is annexed. But it is consonant to the divine authority, that this reservation of cases have effect, not merely in external polity, but also in God's sight. Nevertheless, for fear lest any may perish on this account, it has always been very piously observed in the said Church of God, that there be no reservation at the point of death, and that therefore all priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever: and as, save at that point of death, priests have no power in reserved cases, let this alone be their endeavour, to persuade penitents to repair to superior and lawful judges for the benefit  of absolution."

    Note Trent says "priests may absolve all penitents whatsoever from every kind of sins and censures whatever.."

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14770
    • Reputation: +6101/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #108 on: October 01, 2024, 05:48:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Of course Luther was a valid priest, but he was definitely not a Catholic priest.

    Now,

    Are you saying that Luther was still a Catholic until the day he died or did he lose the Faith, at some point, and ceased being a Catholic?
    Oh bother, remember, Once a Catholic, always a Catholic. He faced God as a Catholic priest. Did he also face God with the mortal sins of heresy and losing the faith? We don't know, but losing the faith was his own doing, not God's.

    The deserter from the army still belongs to the army - as a deserter, the army did not desert him, he still belongs to the army - and when they catch him he will be punished for deserting.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14770
    • Reputation: +6101/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #109 on: October 01, 2024, 05:53:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, the part about public retraction, or public abjuration of heresy is what Stubborn is missing.

    PUBLIC heresy, PUBLIC schism, etc (i.e. like Martin Luther's) require PUBLIC displays of apology.  This is what canon law says.
    If it's a private matter of heresy/schism (where scandal was minimal) then such can be forgiven through confession alone.

    But Stubborn is just lumping everything into 1 category.  As he normally does.  Lack of distinguishing.

    It's no different than the sin of theft. 
    a.  Yes, you can go to confession.  No, you are not forgiven until you make restitution to the person you stole from.

    Sin of public heresy/schism:
    a.  Yes, you can go to confession.  No, you are not forgiven until you publicly make restitution for your scandal, because your neighbor was hurt due to your sins.
    You make laws more stringent than the Church.

    As I posted to 2V, from Trent....

    On the idea that the penitent must publicly retract his sins...
    "For the rest, as to the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, although Christ has not forbidden that
    a person may,--in punishment of his sins, and for his own humiliation, as well for an example to others as for the edification of the Church that has been scandalized,-- confess his sins publicly, nevertheless this is not commanded by a divine precept; neither would it very prudent to enjoin by any human law, that sins, especially such as
    are secret, should be made known by a public confession."

    Now stop making your own rules, leave that to the sedes.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #110 on: October 01, 2024, 06:03:14 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Oh bother, remember, Once a Catholic, always a Catholic. He faced God as a Catholic priest. Did he also face God with the mortal sins of heresy and losing the faith? We don't know, but losing the faith was his own doing, not God's.

    The deserter from the army still belongs to the army - as a deserter, the army did not desert him, he still belongs to the army - and when they catch him he will be punished for deserting.

    But I didn’t ask you if he “faced God as a Catholic priest”, I asked you if he was “still a Catholic until the day he died or did he lose the Faith, at some point, and ceased being a Catholic? This isn’t rocket science, it’s a yes or no question.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6476/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #111 on: October 01, 2024, 06:28:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, all I can say is start looking. I suggest, seriously, start with searching for sins that are not forgiven in the sacrament of penance, this should shorten your search time considerably.

    I attached a pdf snip from Trent on the Sacrament of penance and Extreme Unction, it's less than 11 pages, hopefully you are able to study it.  Here are a few pertinent quotes:

    What of all the anathemas then?  Trent lists all the situations where, if one were to believe XYZ, "let them be anathema".  In other words, they are separated from/out of the Church.  Trent does not speak of what happens to those unfortunates, and it is those situations which I believe Pius XII speaks of when he classifies the sins of heresy, schism and apostasy as separate from all other sins. So, basically, I don't think your pdf covers what I have been speaking about here.  Maybe you have another Church docuмent/teaching that does?

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14770
    • Reputation: +6101/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #112 on: October 01, 2024, 06:31:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But I didn’t ask you if he “faced God as a Catholic priest”, I asked you if he was “still a Catholic until the day he died or did he lose the Faith, at some point, and ceased being a Catholic? This isn’t rocket science, it’s a yes or no question.
    Your barrage of questions are getting very old. Although it would probably be different if you ever answered any of my questions, normally you just drop out mid-discussion rather than face the music.

    What does Once a Catholic, always a Catholic mean to you? Likely it's heresy to you. In the case of Fr. Luther, he remained a Catholic till his bitter end, excommunicated and and guilty of the public mortal sins of heresy, apostacy and schism, and you can add adultery and whatever other public mortal sins you know of.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14770
    • Reputation: +6101/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #113 on: October 01, 2024, 06:47:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What of all the anathemas then?  Trent lists all the situations where, if one were to believe XYZ, "let them be anathema".  In other words, they are condemned and separated from the Church.  Trent does not speak of what happens to those unfortunates, and it is those situations which I believe Pius XII speaks of when he classifies the sins of heresy, schism and apostasy as separate from all other sins. So, basically, I don't think your pdf covers what I have been speaking about here.  Maybe you have another Church docuмent/teaching that does?
    Anathema does not mean condemned and separated from the Church. Let him be anathema = whoever says this  sins, or some say to be anathema is to be cursed.

    They put it this way because it is a sin to deny dogma, it can be a mortal sin if we are obstinate and persist in the denial. Trent's canons are teaching Morals so they are infallible, they are telling us if we do what they just condemned, we sin. 

    I think if you get time to study those chapters you will better understand that heresy, apostacy and schism are sins - confession is how we are absolved from those sins. What they are not, is some entity stronger than the power of the sacrament.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #114 on: October 01, 2024, 07:56:24 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Your barrage of questions are getting very old. Although it would probably be different if you ever answered any of my questions, normally you just drop out mid-discussion rather than face the music.

    What does Once a Catholic, always a Catholic mean to you? Likely it's heresy to you. In the case of Fr. Luther, he remained a Catholic till his bitter end, excommunicated and and guilty of the public mortal sins of heresy, apostacy and schism, and you can add adultery and whatever other public mortal sins you know of. 
    I did answer a question you asked me a few posts back.
    What’s more important is that you believe Martin Luther was always a Catholic. This is completely heterodox, but it serves the purpose of demonstrating to this forum that your opinion is not only worthless, but is seriously dangerous to any Catholic who may take you seriously. 

    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12349
    • Reputation: +7847/-2433
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #115 on: October 01, 2024, 08:25:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    On the idea that the penitent must publicly retract his sins...
    "For the rest, as to the manner of confessing secretly to a priest alone, although Christ has not forbidden that
    a person may,--in punishment of his sins, and for his own humiliation, as well for an example to others as for the edification of the Church that has been scandalized,-- confess his sins publicly, nevertheless this is not commanded by a divine precept; neither would it very prudent to enjoin by any human law, that sins, especially such as
    are secret, should be made known by a public confession."
    :facepalm:  The 2 items in question "public abjuration" and "public retraction" .... these are not a public confession, which is what your quote is referencing.  Your quote has nothing to do with abjuration/retraction.

    An abjuration/retraction is a formal admitting that you were a heretic/schismatic.  That you believed, supported, condoned, and pushed error.  Since your errors were public, then your retraction must be public.  It's exactly the type of letter that +Vigano wrote.  He admitted he was wrong about V2, and Conciliarism, the new mass, etc.  Then he explained why they are wrong and Orthodoxy is right.

    Quote
    Personally, I used to think that in the case of public heretics such as the conciliar popes and hierarchy, a public abjuration of their heresies should be an absolute requirement, but per Trent above, it's not, and what I think doesn't matter - and per Trent I was wrong to think that way.
    All Trent is saying above is that it's not a Divine requirement.  It also says that SECRET sins should not be made public.  But sins of heresy/schism are NOT SECRET.  They cause scandal and the scandal must be undone.  So says canon law.  That's the whole point of a suspected heretic being "called to rome" to be interrogated.  It's the entire basis of the Spanish Inquisition.  Suspected heretics were examined to determine if they were a) confused on doctrine (material heretics, or b) obstinate in error (formal heretics).


    Quote
    On the Reservation of Cases
    Which means sins to which the censure of excommunication is attached reserved to the Holy See. (i.e. only the pope can forgive) is not in force when the penitent is in danger of death....
    :facepalm:  No one is talking about in 'danger of death' which situation has all manner of exceptions.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12349
    • Reputation: +7847/-2433
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #116 on: October 01, 2024, 08:26:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote
    What’s more important is that you believe Martin Luther was always a Catholic. This is completely heterodox,
    No, it's right in one sense but wrong in another sense.  It depends.

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11528
    • Reputation: +6476/-1195
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #117 on: October 01, 2024, 08:30:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, it's right in one sense but wrong in another sense.  It depends.
    So, in what sense did Martin Luther "remain a Catholic until his bitter end"? I am still looking for Church teaching that would support that such a statement is Catholic.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4750
    • Reputation: +2897/-667
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #118 on: October 01, 2024, 08:34:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, it's right in one sense but wrong in another sense.  It depends.

    No, it’s wrong in all senses. A heretic is not a Catholic.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14770
    • Reputation: +6101/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #119 on: October 01, 2024, 09:20:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, it’s wrong in all senses. A heretic is not a Catholic.
    :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse