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Author Topic: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility  (Read 10136 times)

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #100 on: September 30, 2024, 12:58:58 PM »
Pax Vobis:  Thank you for your post.  What you say runs along the lines of the thesis of Bishop Sanborn.  If pope (not pope) says he is sorry, a confession, he is pope.  So, I don't agree with the Bishop Sanborn thesis.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2024, 01:13:26 PM »
This is what it seems like to me too. 

Stubborn:  Do you have Church docuмents that support your interpretation of Mystici Corporus Christi....that a person that commits the sin of heresy, schism, or apostasy "only" needs to go to confession?  Do you have Church docuмentation that supports "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" even if they become a heretic? So far all I've seen are your words.

Because it doesn't matter what *I* think I would have to do if I, God forbid, became a heretic, apostate or schismatic.  It only matters what *the Church* expects me to do.
Church docuмents?

What does the Church expect her children to do when they commit mortal sin? Answer: Go to confession and amend their life. Confession is THE ONLY sure way for Catholics in mortal sin to be forgiven. Heresy is a sin - you have to go to confession and amend your life to be forgiven. Why is this so complicated? Once a Catholic, we have all the sacraments God gave us at our disposal until we leave this world.

It is the sin that severed, not the Church. If the Church did the severing, then yes, I could see and even agree with the point of this debate.

This really should not be the least bit complicated to anyone here on this forum.





Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2024, 01:27:58 PM »
Church docuмents?

What does the Church expect her children to do when they commit mortal sin? Answer: Go to confession and amend their life. Confession is THE ONLY sure way for Catholics in mortal sin to be forgiven. Heresy is a sin - you have to go to confession and amend your life to be forgiven. Why is this so complicated? Once a Catholic, we have all the sacraments God gave us at our disposal until we leave this world.

It is the sin that severed, not the Church. If the Church did the severing, then yes, I could see and even agree with the point of this debate.

This really should not be the least bit complicated to anyone here on this forum.
It's clear to me that Pius XII placed the sins of heresy, schism and apostasy in a class all their own.  They are not like other sins. Until I see Church docuмents/support on how these specific sins should be handled or treated, it remains "complicated". 

Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #103 on: September 30, 2024, 01:55:43 PM »
And Francis, were he to go to confession - whether he is a pope or not, the majority of the Catholic world recognizes him as such; by virtue of his baptism he is a member of the Church- would have to publicly retract his many sins.  Because his sins are in the public domain, he would be required to issue a public retraction of them.  It would be no different than Madonna were she to go to confession.  Her public sins would require a public retraction. 

On the issue of a modern pope declaring something ex cathedra, I am of the opinion that the state of grace is required for a pope to make an ex cathedra declaration, since it is ultimately an operation of the Holy Ghost speaking through the pope.  Of course the pope writes the papal bull and then he speaks the truth contained therein.  The question is, Are all the words of the papal bull infallible?  I say no.  If we have no guarantee that all of the words are true, then how can guarantee that some of the words are true?  And the answer is, the qualifying words, "We declare, say, and pronounce...,"  uttered by the pope. 


Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #104 on: September 30, 2024, 02:39:25 PM »
Are you saying he remained a priest but not a Catholic priest?

Of course Luther was a valid priest, but he was definitely not a Catholic priest.

Now,

Are you saying that Luther was still a Catholic until the day he died or did he lose the Faith, at some point, and ceased being a Catholic?