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Author Topic: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility  (Read 8810 times)

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Offline HeidtXtreme

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Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« on: September 26, 2024, 03:03:06 PM »
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  • Hello everyone, I've been a member of Cathinfo for closer to a year but this is my first time starting a thread, please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong! I'm a young Traditional Catholic, and I haven't found ample time to do serious research into this specific topic, so forgive me for any possible ignorance. 

    I was simply wondering what the SSPX Resistance and other non-Sedevacantist Catholics on Cathinfo would believe if Pope Francis were to infallibly declare and define a dogma that wasn't contrary to pre-Vatican II, Church teaching. Such as a Marian dogma. I am not personally a Sedevacantist, however, I am in no way against the position, and the only other Traditional Catholics I know are Sedevacantists. Of course, for Sedevacantists, this specific issue can be brushed off because Francis isn't the Pope and so even if the statement was true it wouldn't be defined dogma. But if Francis is the Pope, does he still possess the power to infallibly define teachings of the Church, or would these dogmas need to later be redefined by a a good Catholic Pope? Thank you for your patience and God bless you all.

    Online St Giles

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #1 on: September 26, 2024, 03:36:32 PM »
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  • Tough question. I'd have my doubts when it comes to a truthful infallible declaration from him, so I would be cautious in accepting it as truly infallible. It would make sense that a good traditional pope to come after him would verify the truthfulness and infallibility of any declaration from such a pope, but in the mean time it would seem prudent to accept it if it doesn't clearly go against the faith. It's a horrible situation we are in that we should have to judge each time whether to obey, while running the risk of offending authority, and running the risk of being deceived. I imagine God would be particularly merciful to us considering the circuмstances as long as we continue to seek His truth and mercy, while always having contrition for all of our sins, offences, and negligences.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"


    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #2 on: September 27, 2024, 04:14:42 AM »
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  • Isn't the canonisation of saints an infallible declaration? 

    It doesn't seem coherent that many traditional catholics reject the saintliness of Paul VI but accept the canonisation of Padre Pio 


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #3 on: September 27, 2024, 04:51:31 AM »
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  • Hello everyone, I've been a member of Cathinfo for closer to a year but this is my first time starting a thread, please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong! I'm a young Traditional Catholic, and I haven't found ample time to do serious research into this specific topic, so forgive me for any possible ignorance.

    I was simply wondering what the SSPX Resistance and other non-Sedevacantist Catholics on Cathinfo would believe if Pope Francis were to infallibly declare and define a dogma that wasn't contrary to pre-Vatican II, Church teaching. Such as a Marian dogma. I am not personally a Sedevacantist, however, I am in no way against the position, and the only other Traditional Catholics I know are Sedevacantists. Of course, for Sedevacantists, this specific issue can be brushed off because Francis isn't the Pope and so even if the statement was true it wouldn't be defined dogma. But if Francis is the Pope, does he still possess the power to infallibly define teachings of the Church, or would these dogmas need to later be redefined by a a good Catholic Pope? Thank you for your patience and God bless you all.
    All a dogma is, is a doctrine that is defined ex cathedra and binds us to believe.
    All a doctrine is, is a belief that the faithful have always believed and Church has always taught. A dogma cannot be a "new doctrine" (which is another term for heresy) or something that is new. V1 tells us: "For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine."  So this is how we would know true or false if he ever went to define a dogma, but the whole idea is merely a speculative exercise in futility because with faith, we know this can never happen.   
     
    Quote
    "...If these two Doctrines [Infallibility and Indefectibility] be true, then whatever the popes have said or done, whatever they ever say or do, will not be a violation of the Church's attribute of infallibility. And no matter what anyone does, whether from within or without, he will not succeed in destroying the Church. The enemies of Christ's Church do not believe this, which explains why they will never cease to try..." - Fr. Wathen from his book: Who Shall Ascend? 
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #4 on: September 27, 2024, 05:07:44 AM »
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  • Isn't the canonisation of saints an infallible declaration?

    It doesn't seem coherent that many traditional catholics reject the saintliness of Paul VI but accept the canonisation of Padre Pio
    Per the dogma of papal infallibility as defined at V1, no. The pope's infallibility is strictly limited to when he speaks ex cathedra, i.e. defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

    Per the Church's Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, yes. 

    Are NO canonizations infallible? No.  



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #5 on: September 27, 2024, 05:30:03 AM »
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  • Per the dogma of papal infallibility as defined at V1, no. The pope's infallibility is strictly limited to when he speaks ex cathedra, i.e. defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.

    Per the Church's Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, yes.

    Are NO canonizations infallible? No. 

    Do you mean that no canonizations are infallible or just the Novus Ordo variety?

    What authority can you cite who supports your supposition?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #6 on: September 27, 2024, 05:54:52 AM »
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  • Do you mean that no canonizations are infallible or just the Novus Ordo variety?

    What authority can you cite who supports your supposition?
    What authority? The Church's Magisterium.

    NO = Novus Ordo = not Catholic = NO canonizations are not infallible.

    The dogma of papal infallibility defined at V1 is quite clear in strictly limiting the pope's infallibility to when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. So for a pope to canonize saints in the NO church = not infallible, even if some of those saints like Padre Pio truly are saints.

    But the belief that canonizations are infallible is what Catholics have always and everywhere believed, like St. John the Baptist born (not conceived) without Original Sin was never defined or even taught officially in any encyclical far as I know, but being part of the Church's Magisterium it is a belief Catholics have held always and everywhere, it's  what Catholic believe.
       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #7 on: September 27, 2024, 06:16:19 AM »
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  • What authority? The Church's Magisterium.

    NO = Novus Ordo = not Catholic = NO canonizations are not infallible.

    The dogma of papal infallibility defined at V1 is quite clear in strictly limiting the pope's infallibility to when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra. So for a pope to canonize saints in the NO church = not infallible, even if some of those saints like Padre Pio truly are saints.

    But the belief that canonizations are infallible is what Catholics have always and everywhere believed, like St. John the Baptist born (not conceived) without Original Sin was never defined or even taught officially in any encyclical far as I know, but being part of the Church's Magisterium it is a belief Catholics have held always and everywhere, it's  what Catholic believe.
     

     You say: “NO = Novus Ordo = not Catholic”     

     So, are you actually saying that the NO church is not the Catholic Church?



    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #8 on: September 27, 2024, 06:22:50 AM »
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  • You say: “NO = Novus Ordo = not Catholic”   

     So, are you actually saying that the NO church is not the Catholic Church?
    Of course it's not the Catholic Church, I've only said the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church about 100 times over the years here on CI.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #9 on: September 27, 2024, 06:39:35 AM »
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  • Of course it's not the Catholic Church, I've only said the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church about 100 times over the years here on CI.

    So, in your mind and for the record, is Bergoglio the head of the Catholic Church or the conciliar church?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #10 on: September 27, 2024, 06:45:13 AM »
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  • So, in your mind and for the record, is Bergoglio the head of the Catholic Church or the conciliar church?
    I think R&R's believe that he is the head of both churches at the same time.  


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #11 on: September 27, 2024, 06:50:22 AM »
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  • So, in your mind and for the record, is Bergoglio the head of the Catholic Church or the conciliar church?
    It's not complicated, Pope Francis is the pope. All of the cardinals in the conclave accepted him as pope and we must also. As I said, it's not complicated. What he does in the conciliar church is not Catholic. Again, not complicated.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #12 on: September 27, 2024, 06:59:52 AM »
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  • It's not complicated, Pope Francis is the pope. All of the cardinals in the conclave accepted him as pope and we must also. As I said, it's not complicated. What he does in the conciliar church is not Catholic. Again, not complicated.

    That didn’t answer the question here it is again:

     In your mind and for the record, is Bergoglio the head of the Catholic Church or the conciliar church?

    Remember you stated absolutely that the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #13 on: September 27, 2024, 07:08:20 AM »
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  • That didn’t answer the question here it is again:

     In your mind and for the record, is Bergoglio the head of the Catholic Church or the conciliar church?

    Remember you stated absolutely that the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church.
    The answer is that Pope Francis is the pope of the Catholic Church. Obviously the conciliar catholics believe he is the pope of their church, so for them he is their pope too.

    I've stated absolutely that the conciliar church is not the Catholic Church many times over the years, if you think it is then we disagree.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #14 on: September 27, 2024, 07:13:16 AM »
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  • The answer is that Pope Francis is the pope of the Catholic Church. Obviously the conciliar catholics believe he is the pope of their church, so for them he is their pope too.

    So, is Bergoglio a conciliar catholic or a real Catholic?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?