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Author Topic: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility  (Read 8227 times)

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Offline HeidtXtreme

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Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
« Reply #75 on: September 29, 2024, 10:34:33 PM »
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  • OP, I am sede, but it seems to me that any dogma that was true that would be defined by any true pope would already be part of the Magisterium. 

    For example, when Pius XII defined the Assumption of Our Lady in 1950, it was already held and believed by Catholics.  It didn't suddenly become a true doctrine of the Church when he defined it 1,950 years later. 

    So, I suspect that all Catholics would already hold whatever true dogma that Francis would "define".  I don't think that would ever be an issue.
    That makes sense, thank you for your honesty. I didn’t mean to exclude Sedevacantists from the discussion, I really appreciate their insight. I just know that some of the more hardcore Sedevacantists, like the ones I know, would be quick to discredit a possible defining of a dogma by a Vatican II Pope, even if it were true, because he’s a false Pope.

    Offline HeidtXtreme

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #76 on: September 29, 2024, 10:37:19 PM »
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  • All a dogma is, is a doctrine that is defined ex cathedra and binds us to believe.
    All a doctrine is, is a belief that the faithful have always believed and Church has always taught. A dogma cannot be a "new doctrine" (which is another term for heresy) or something that is new. V1 tells us: "For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine." So this is how we would know true or false if he ever went to define a dogma, but the whole idea is merely a speculative exercise in futility because with faith, we know this can never happen.   
     
    I apologize, I often get dogma and doctrine mixed up in my head. I’ll keep that in mind in the future, thank you!


    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #77 on: September 30, 2024, 02:24:39 AM »
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  • Yes, the SSPX/R&R goalposts changed when JPII was "canonized".

    But, I guess I'm confused where you stand on canonizations and whether JPII is a Saint and on the crisis in general.  With your most recent posts here, you seem to question both the sede and non-sede position at the same time.
    As a family we just seek valid priests and acknowledge that with the Vatican 2 changes the episcopal consecration are doubtful at best and are probably invalid. I don't have the canonical knowledge or rhetoric  to argue this too deeply and prefer to leave the debating to those who know better than I, on this forum and elsewhere. 

    However the most sede positions posit that the Church and popes were without error up to Vatican 2 in matters of faith and morals. This position is also difficult to maintain without ignoring rather important events of Church history, which would derail this thread if I were to bring them up.  

    No of course I don't believe that JP 2 is a saint, but the R and R explanation of why he isn't a saint is very muddled. 




    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #78 on: September 30, 2024, 05:05:41 AM »
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  • You just exposed yourself as being totally disingenuous. Stubborn, remember that it’s reprehensible to lie, but what’s worse is to lie to yourself. :facepalm:
    See, there is something about the sede mind that instantly turns itself off to certain truths when it encounters some truth that contradicts their opinion-turned-doctrine, and accuses the truth teller of lies in order to maintain as de fide their opinion-turned-doctrine. Once turned off, apparently there is no turning it back on - reference the attached snip in my last post. Not sure why, but I often find this phenomena somewhat fascinating.

    Again, all you have to do is put yourself in any fallen away Catholic's position who wants to repent of their sins of heresy. Imagining this is typically something very simple to do - fyi.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #79 on: September 30, 2024, 05:19:13 AM »
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  • See, there is something about the sede mind that instantly turns itself off to certain truths when it encounters some truth that contradicts their opinion-turned-doctrine, and accuses the truth teller of lies in order to maintain as de fide their opinion-turned-doctrine. Once turned off, apparently there is no turning it back on - reference the attached snip in my last post. Not sure why, but I often find this phenomena somewhat fascinating.

    Again, all you have to do is put yourself in any fallen away Catholic's position who wants to repent of their sins of heresy. Imagining this is typically something very simple to do - fyi.

    Please explain what you mean by the phrase: “once a Catholic always a Catholic”? Are there exceptions?

    You gave an exception to certain validly baptized children who were baptized outside of the Catholic Church. You said (correctly) that they were Catholic only until they reached the age of reason if they then rejected the Catholic Faith. This is in direct contradiction of your “once a Catholic always a Catholic” doctrine. Do you at least admit the contradiction?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #80 on: September 30, 2024, 05:37:58 AM »
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  • Thank you for this link. Here is an extract from the concluding pages 133 and 134:

    "All we can do is to conclude practically with St. Bonaventure, that it would be a most incredible and most horrible thing to doubt of the true beatitude of any one whom the Church has canonized ; with Melchior Canus, that a man who did so would be temerarious, impudent, and irreligious ; with Benedict XIV. that he would be rash, give scandal to the Church, dishonour the Saints, favour the heretics who deny the authority of the church in canonization, and would himself savour of heresy, as preparing the way for infidels to deride the faithful ; that that man would be an asserter of an erroneous opinion, and obnoxious to the heaviest penalties, who should dare to affirm that the sovereign pontiff had erred in this or that canonization, or that this or that Saint canonized by him was not to be reverenced with the cultus dulis ; and, finally, with the Dominican Billuart, that whosoever should deny that any one canonized by the Church was a Saint and in glory would not certainly be a formal heretic, but would be, first, temerarious, because he would contradict the common opinion of the Church in a matter excellently well founded, and whose opposite has no adequate foundation ; it is the most insolent madness, says St. Augustine, to dispute whether that ought to be done which the whole Church does ; secondly, scandalous, as drawing the faithful away from the cultus of the Saints ; thirdly, impious, as insulting and dishonouring the Church and her Saints "

    The bold type is mine.

    Why should anyone therefore deny the saintliness of John Paul II ?
    The bold type in the above quote is mine.

    Nobody doubts everything in the above quote is certainly true, because it applies to the Catholic Church, not the conciliar church, anymore than it would apply to the Hindu church, or the protestant church.

    The conciliar church is not the Catholic Church. The conciliar canonizations are not canonized by the Church, why is it that all trads do not understand this when it's right before our own eyes I don't know.

    Where it says:
    "...who should dare to affirm that the sovereign pontiff had erred in this or that canonization...Well, we faithful Catholics dare to affirm this, the reason we dare to affirm this is because the pope performed canonizations of public heretics and did so outside of the Church. It's really not all that complicated.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #81 on: September 30, 2024, 06:07:57 AM »
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  • Please explain what you mean by the phrase: “once a Catholic always a Catholic”? Are there exceptions?

    You gave an exception to certain validly baptized children who were baptized outside of the Catholic Church. You said (correctly) that they were Catholic only until they reached the age of reason if they then rejected the Catholic Faith. This is in direct contradiction of your “once a Catholic always a Catholic” doctrine. Do you at least admit the contradiction?
    There is no contradiction, you are creating the contradiction.

    The contradiction you are creating is between "before the use of reason" and "after the use of reason." 

    Babies baptized by a Catholic priest, with Catholic parents, in a Catholic Church, and with Godparents and Easter water are under the same obligation as non-Catholic baptized babies - after attaining the use of reason.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #82 on: September 30, 2024, 06:21:53 AM »
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  • Again, all you have to do is put yourself in any fallen away Catholic's position who wants to repent of their sins of heresy. Imagining this is typically something very simple to do - fyi.
    Is this person a member of the Church prior to repentance?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #83 on: September 30, 2024, 06:43:52 AM »
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  • Is this person a member of the Church prior to repentance?
    Yes, of course. A Catholic who commits any mortal sin, no matter what the sin, always can (and should) go to confession and receive absolution.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #84 on: September 30, 2024, 06:50:11 AM »
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  • Yes, of course. A Catholic who commits any mortal sin, no matter what the sin, always can (and should) go to confession and receive absolution.
    But, according to Pius XII, the sin of heresy severs a person from the Body of the Church.  It is unlike any other grave sin (except schism and apostasy):

    23. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. It is owing to the Savior's infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet.[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins. - Mystici Corporis Christi

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #85 on: September 30, 2024, 06:59:59 AM »
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  • That makes sense, thank you for your honesty. I didn’t mean to exclude Sedevacantists from the discussion, I really appreciate their insight. I just know that some of the more hardcore Sedevacantists, like the ones I know, would be quick to discredit a possible defining of a dogma by a Vatican II Pope, even if it were true, because he’s a false Pope.
    I don't think it was a matter of honesty.  I think I was just using my logic here.  If we know that any definition of dogma involves a doctrine that was already held to be true by the Church, then it would still be true after the formal definition.  Granted, I don't think we could call it "dogma" if Bergoglio "defined" it, but the doctrine would still be true. So, again, a future definition to make it an official dogma of the Church by a true pope would not be necessary (unless the true pope thought so, of course).


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #86 on: September 30, 2024, 07:38:23 AM »
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  • But, according to Pius XII, the sin of heresy severs a person from the Body of the Church.  It is unlike any other grave sin (except schism and apostasy):

    23. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. It is owing to the Savior's infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet.[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins. - Mystici Corporis Christi
    What you're saying is that PPXII is saying once a heretic, always a heretic? That the confessional is forever closed to repentant Catholics guilty of the sin of heresy? But note what he says in the next sentence.  

    Again, if tomorrow *you* chose to defect from the faith and joined the Lutherans as a woman priest, and after 10 years came to your senses and wanted to repent, what would be the first, or at least one of the first things you would need to do? You would need to walk into the confessional as you always used to do and confess your sins to the priest, only Catholics can do this.   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #87 on: September 30, 2024, 07:57:23 AM »
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  • There is no contradiction, you are creating the contradiction.

    The contradiction you are creating is between "before the use of reason" and "after the use of reason." 

    Babies baptized by a Catholic priest, with Catholic parents, in a Catholic Church, and with Godparents and Easter water are under the same obligation as non-Catholic baptized babies - after attaining the use of reason. 

    Are “non-Catholic baptized babies - after attaining the use of reason” still considered Catholics if they don’t accept the Catholic faith after they attain the use of reason?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #88 on: September 30, 2024, 08:13:46 AM »
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  • What you're saying is that PPXII is saying once a heretic, always a heretic? That the confessional is forever closed to repentant Catholics guilty of the sin of heresy? But note what he says in the next sentence. 

    Again, if tomorrow *you* chose to defect from the faith and joined the Lutherans as a woman priest, and after 10 years came to your senses and wanted to repent, what would be the first, or at least one of the first things you would need to do? You would need to walk into the confessional as you always used to do and confess your sins to the priest, only Catholics can do this. 
    Of course I'm not. 

    The issue is heresy severs one from the membership of the Church. But such a person can choose to return to the Church.

    The last sentence speaks of those who "hold fast to faith".  He is clearly not referring to those who sever themselves from the Church via the sins of heresy, schism or apostasy because they do not "hold fast to faith":

    Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Question About V2 Popes' Infallibility
    « Reply #89 on: September 30, 2024, 08:49:48 AM »
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  • Quote
    Yes, of course. A Catholic who commits any mortal sin, no matter what the sin, always can (and should) go to confession and receive absolution.
    This is true, generally speaking.  It is not true, specifically, for such sins as heresy, schism, etc.

    These sins have the EXTRA penalties (through canon law) of spiritual interdiction, excommunications (there are various kinds).  Such sins CANNOT be forgiven by confession alone.  Similar to abortion...under normal circuмstances, abortion cannot be forgiven in confession, but ALSO requires a forgiveness and process by way of the bishop (or, in some cases, the pope).


    Quote
    The issue is heresy severs one from the membership of the Church. But such a person can choose to return to the Church.
    Right.  And the Church does not take these sins lightly (i.e. heresy, schism, abortion, etc).  The whole purpose of excommunication, interdicts, etc is to make these sins EXTRAORDINARILY wrong, because they do such harm to the faithful and to society.  The Church cannot let a Martin Luther scandal just be over and done with after a 20 min confession.  The evil, scandal, and damage done by Martin Luther was too great.  There's always room for forgiveness but since these sins are PUBLIC sins, then the retribution and confession of wrong-doing must also be public.


    Thus, a public heretic/schismatic would still go to confession, but there would also be a public hearing, meeting, process whereby the Bishop or a papal official would review the case, interview the sinner, and get his statement on record that a) he was wrong, b) he no longer believes in the errors and c) he will do public penance as a way to try to undo the damage of scandal.

    As Christ said yesterday in the Gospel "Woe to those who cause scandal".  The sins of heresy and schism are super-scandals which are ultra-damaging to the Faith.  A simple confession does NOT cut it.  Canon law is very clear.