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Author Topic: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle  (Read 1507 times)

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Offline PG

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Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
« on: May 28, 2017, 09:07:01 PM »
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  • Don't think I am intentionally picking on you Matthew, you just have such an influence in the traditional world(confessedly on myself).  But, you posted recently this:

    "Is the Novus Ordo invalid? Well then you have to worry about the priest distributing "communion" from a previous Novus Ordo Mass. And are you genuflecting to the tabernacle before the Latin Mass is offered? If so, you might be adoring mere bread."

    And, my question flows from your post.  And, my question is, would previously "consecrated" hosts consecrated by an invalid priest actually become truly consecrated after the mass of a valid priest celebrating mass at the altar of this tabernacle when his intention is to distribute such hosts?  

    I am not convinced that these old hosts from an invalid mass sitting in the tabernacle would remain invalid if the new valid priest celebrating mass at that altar with that tabernacle has the intention of distributing those hosts.

    Has the church addressed this issue?  Please help.

    And, if it turns out that these hosts are invalid, how could one know?  Laity have no idea if there are or are not even any hosts at all in the tabernacle when they genuflect in NO churches.  So, with your thinking, there then could be valid hosts in the tabernacle that you are not genuflecting towards.  I can understand the avoid NO church argument, and that is a separate argument, but if you end up going into one, what is the best side to err on?  I think genuflecting is the side to err on, if we are even going to call it an error.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #1 on: May 28, 2017, 09:42:38 PM »
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  • I have heard priests address this issue, not the specific question you're raising, but the issue of the intention.  Each of them said that in the traditional Mass, only the bread and wine that is on the corporal on the altar is consecrated.  That is why the priest will ensure each ciborium that contains unconsecrated hosts is placed on the corporal and uncovered at the consecration.  

    These priests seem to indicate that this is simply how it is in the traditional Mass.  In any event, they were absolutely adamant that he would have to have the intention to consecrate--an intention to distribute hosts he believed were already consecrated would not suffice; and if he believed they were not validly consecrated, he would removed them from the tabernacle and place them on the corporal.  Plus, he would probably have to explain to the Novus Ordo pastor or bishop what the problem was.


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #2 on: May 28, 2017, 10:13:07 PM »
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  • is New Order valid?  No!  Holy Orders, the sacrament was changed in 1968 about and there is no ordination, just like Luther did for the Lutherans.  Mass changed? Yes, Canon, "many" changed to "all".   You don't change the words of Christ.  He meant what he said, "Many".   Many are called and few are chosen.

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #3 on: May 28, 2017, 10:20:29 PM »
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  • If you genuflect, it is not to Christ but mere bread.  Isn't that idolatry?  I thought that the New Order just walked into their pews, or is its chairs?  I know a chapel for missionary nuns, that thought is was a novelty to put the stations of the cross on the floor.  Pictures in the tile.  I think there is a name for that when you walk on holy objects, along the lines of desecration.  What will they think of next!?

    Offline White Wolf

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    Unconsecrated Hosts in Tabernacle are...
    « Reply #4 on: May 29, 2017, 04:59:33 AM »
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  • not consecrated by a valid mass.  :facepalm:

    At seminary the priest is (hopefully) taught that he makes the specific intention to consecrate only those things that are on the corporal, a square piece of cloth that is brought to the altar folded under the chalice veil and unfolded by the priest at the start of low mass or during the offertory at high mass. Theoretically, a priest could consecrate a massive amount of bread placed on a table, but in the old rite this would have constituted a massive, notorious sacrilege, and the guys in the black SUVs would have taken that man to the deepest, darkest part of Regina Coeli, ten stories beneath the Lateran.

    Many times I have wondered about whether to genuflect upon entering a Novus ordo church.  I always genuflect conditionally, saying, Lord, if you are in there...  (Of course, there are some Novus Churches where I know the matter is certainly invalid, and I do not even bother to do that.)

    For a while I was at FSSP in Scranton, PA.  It came to my intention that Novus Ordo hosts [from the sole Novus Ordo said on Saturday night for 3.5 people (there was a huge N O parish a block down the street that had "mass" at the same time, for crying out loud, and it was "conservative", to boot.)] were being mixed with the contents of what was consecrated by the daily Tridentine Masses and Sunday Masses.  I stopped receiving communion and a weak later the priest asked why.  I told him.  The priest started the practice of consecrating ciboria at that mass and only opening the tabernacle at the end of the communion service.  About two months later he secretly told me the practice had been stopped.  (At this point I would not receive communion at any FSSP chapel but will not elaborate here... read my post "sacramentum disordinis"...).  I guess the FSSP really neaded my endorsement. :D

    But once again, this discussion is like talking about walking through a minefield while avoiding dog poop.

    The N O is a sacrilege.  Avoid it.  Stay home, say your rosary, and preach in season and out of season to the apostates going there...

    regards....
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #5 on: May 29, 2017, 06:30:14 AM »
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  • "Is the Novus Ordo invalid? Well then you have to worry about the priest distributing "communion" from a previous Novus Ordo Mass. And are you genuflecting to the tabernacle before the Latin Mass is offered? If so, you might be adoring mere bread."

    And, my question flows from your post.  And, my question is, would previously "consecrated" hosts consecrated by an invalid priest actually become truly consecrated after the mass of a valid priest celebrating mass at the altar of this tabernacle when his intention is to distribute such hosts?  

    I am not convinced that these old hosts from an invalid mass sitting in the tabernacle would remain invalid if the new valid priest celebrating mass at that altar with that tabernacle has the intention of distributing those hosts.

    Has the church addressed this issue?  Please help.
    To be clear, when you speak of validity, you are discussing whether the consecration of the mass is valid and true, whether there is truly transubstantiation or not.

    Your question exemplifies one of the reasons for entirely avoiding stepping foot in a newchurch. It is by design that there is no guaranteed correct answer to your question. Because we cannot know, Catholics need to always follow this proper procedure: walk in, see there's a table, walk out - and stay out. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline congaudeant

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    Re: Unconsecrated Hosts in Tabernacle are...
    « Reply #6 on: May 29, 2017, 08:46:19 AM »
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  • not consecrated by a valid mass.  :facepalm:

    At seminary the priest is (hopefully) taught that he makes the specific intention to consecrate only those things that are on the corporal, a square piece of cloth that is brought to the altar folded under the chalice veil and unfolded by the priest at the start of low mass or during the offertory at high mass. Theoretically, a priest could consecrate a massive amount of bread placed on a table, but in the old rite this would have constituted a massive, notorious sacrilege, and the guys in the black SUVs would have taken that man to the deepest, darkest part of Regina Coeli, ten stories beneath the Lateran.

    Many times I have wondered about whether to genuflect upon entering a Novus ordo church.  I always genuflect conditionally, saying, Lord, if you are in there...  (Of course, there are some Novus Churches where I know the matter is certainly invalid, and I do not even bother to do that.)

    For a while I was at FSSP in Scranton, PA.  It came to my intention that Novus Ordo hosts [from the sole Novus Ordo said on Saturday night for 3.5 people (there was a huge N O parish a block down the street that had "mass" at the same time, for crying out loud, and it was "conservative", to boot.)] were being mixed with the contents of what was consecrated by the daily Tridentine Masses and Sunday Masses.  I stopped receiving communion and a weak later the priest asked why.  I told him.  The priest started the practice of consecrating ciboria at that mass and only opening the tabernacle at the end of the communion service.  About two months later he secretly told me the practice had been stopped.  (At this point I would not receive communion at any FSSP chapel but will not elaborate here... read my post "sacramentum disordinis"...).  I guess the FSSP really neaded my endorsement. :D

    But once again, this discussion is like talking about walking through a minefield while avoiding dog poop.

    The N O is a sacrilege.  Avoid it.  Stay home, say your rosary, and preach in season and out of season to the apostates going there...

    regards....
    What led you to the FSSP, White Wolf?
    Congaudeant Catholici

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #7 on: May 29, 2017, 09:40:26 AM »
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  • Quote
    At seminary the priest is (hopefully) taught that he makes the specific intention to consecrate only those things that are on the corporal, a square piece of cloth that is brought to the altar folded under the chalice veil and unfolded by the priest at the start of low mass or during the offertory at high mass.

    This.

    I thought it was common knowledge that only the altar bread on the corporal is consecrated during Mass. The priest makes it his intention to consecrate "all the altar bread on the corporal" or something similar.

    So if you attend Mass at a shared facility, and there are unconsecrated hosts in the tabernacle (due to defect of form), then they will stay unconsecrated right up to the moment of communion -- even if they are distributed during a Tridentine Mass.

    Of course, the issue of priestly training comes up. The priest saying the Tridentine Mass should know how to consecrate hosts. However, not all priests saying the "Latin Mass" are formed in a TRADITIONAL seminary. In other words, they don't all have the quality stamp associated with the old SSPX!

    Most of these Indult priests fail to consecrate those Novus Ordo hosts (inside the tabernacle) ON PURPOSE because they believe (wrongly) that the Novus Ordo is certainly valid. That's the usual situation with most Indult priests.
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    Offline PG

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #8 on: May 29, 2017, 10:52:33 AM »
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  • It would be wonderful if I didn't have to define my position on a pro +williamson resistance forum everytime I want to discuss a topic.  Because, there are the words you hear from +Williamson and the sspx.  And, those words are that the new rite is valid but illicit.  So, don't waste my time with cmri sede validity one liners.  So, I believe the new rite is valid.  I can relate with you white wolf about how you genuflect in NO churches.  There are NO churches I will genuflect in, and there are churches where I will not.  There are NO masses I will attend, and there are NO masses I will not.  Attendance at a NO may come as a shock to members of this forum(who also gasp at the prospect of home-alone-ism).  But, if we believe that the NO is valid, then I without question will prefer it to be as licit as possible.  Because, we cannot even dialogue with liberal Novus ordos, but we can dialogue with conservative Novus ordos.  And, news flash, if you cannot dialogue, there will be no progress towards conversion.  So, I favor that path without question.  And like Peter, Christ invites us to walk out to him on the stormy waters.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #9 on: May 29, 2017, 10:58:48 AM »
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  • Most of these Indult priests fail to consecrate those Novus Ordo hosts ON PURPOSE because they believe (wrongly) that the Novus Ordo is valid. That's the usual situation with most Indult priests.

    I should clarify: the Novus Ordo validity is not 100% certain (like, for example, walking into ANY Traditional Catholic chapel). It is doubtful at best.

    When we have a doubtful option and a certain option, for something like Mass or the Sacraments, we are obligated to choose the certain option. We can't morally -- that is to say, without sin -- choose to "live on the edge" and go with a more dangerous/shaky option. Of course we have free will and can physically choose anything we want, but as you know free will sometimes leads to mortal sin!

    We are also not obligated to put our souls in danger (by, for example, attending the Novus Ordo Mass, which has been proven over 50+ years to be lethal to the Faith, and lethal to countless souls).
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #10 on: May 29, 2017, 12:45:03 PM »
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  •   There are NO churches I will genuflect in, and there are churches where I will not.
    Regardless of your opinion, you are in no way qualified to determine when and where you are in the presence of the Real Presence. The only course to take is to completely avoid the evil thing - consider that otherwise, you make a mockery of all those trad pioneers who battled against the evil thing so that future generation (you) would have the True Mass and sacraments.

    Do not be one of the compromisers, it is on account of the compromisers that +50 years later, questions like yours are still being asked.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline White Wolf

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    I started attending St Michaels FSSP in Scranton when...
    « Reply #11 on: May 29, 2017, 06:09:42 PM »
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  • my parents moved there from KCMO back at the turn of the millennium, after they had worked at SSPX district headquarters for years.  My dad fought me tooth and nail for years over the whole issue of the SSPX "excommunications"  and couldn't bear the family strife it involved and etc.  And because of the confusing stance of the SSPX on the validity of N O ordinations, (which, for reasons I won't go into here, I consider to be invalid, mainly because they do not include the handing of the instruments, which the Council of Florence said was necessary for validity in the Roman Rite.) I saw nothing wrong with FSSP.  It was only later that a conservative N O Catholic, of all people, showed me the inconsistencies of my position, and I humbly submitted to the truth.

    I'm not going to be more Catholic than the pope, so I'm not going to condemn people going to N O.  (By the same token I am not going to condemn Muslims either.)  I do not agree with Bishop Williamson about N O at all.  The N O is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, so far as I am concerned, and will act accordingly.  The N O cannot confer grace any more than a Lutheran High Mass, and when we have a pope who is a pope he will condemn the whole sham.  In the meantime, if the earth is about to be wracked by Czar Bombas and tsunamis and flea plagues and all the rest of it, it rather seems a moot point, doesn't it?
    Our Lady of Fatima Pray for us you are our only hope!

    Offline poche

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #12 on: May 29, 2017, 11:39:16 PM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre recognized the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass. 

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Question about NO consecrated hosts in Tabernacle
    « Reply #13 on: May 30, 2017, 05:51:19 AM »
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  • Archbishop Lefebvre recognized the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass.
    In theory.  In practice, the Archbishop said that many Novus Ordo services were not valid due to the faulty intention of the priest and said that the validity was getting fewer and fewer.  See his book, Open Letter to Confused Catholics.