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Offline Nishant Xavier

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Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #90 on: May 06, 2019, 06:14:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Paul VI was the one who specified that the form of the NREC is 42 words.   He didn't say the form was the entire preface.  Whereas the form of the Eastern Rites is universally agreed to be the entire preface.  You are right, if the Eastern Rite form was anything less than the entire preface it would be invalid according to Pope Pius XII's criteria.  But it wasn't invalid.  Therefore you know that Pope Pius XII was considering the entire preface as the form.  But Paul VI said the NREC form is only 42 words and those 42 words don't specify the 2 criteria for a valid form.  Spiritum Principalis (or equivalent) is indeed in the Eastern Rite forms but there is a lot more in them also which does meet Pope Pius's criteria.

    Hello Clemens Maria. Would you like to address (1) the essential form or "42 words" asks that the Principal or Governing Spirit given to the Apostles is poured out on the Bishop-to-be. Is it doubtful that the Apostles were Bishops and not merely Priests? I've never seen this addressed in any publication by any "nrec is invalid/doubtful" person. (2) Secondly, which to my mind is even more forceful, is it doubtful that Jesus Christ is a High Priest, whom we heard St. Peter describe just this Sunday as "the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." (1 Pet 2:25)? Jesus Christ most certainly has the Mark of the Episcopacy! Now read the "42 words" (italicized) again.

    From: http://sspx.org/en/table-3-validity-new-episcopal-consecrations

    "Deus et Pater Domini nostri Jesu Christi,Pater misericordiarum et Deus totius consolationis,qui in excelsis habitas et humilia respicis,qui cognoscis omnia antequam nascantur,tu qui dedisti in Ecclesia tua normas, per verbum gratiae tuae, qui praedestinasti ex principio genus iustorum ab Abraham, qui constituisti principes et sacerdotes, et sanctuarium tuum sine ministerio non dereliquisti, cui ab initio mundi placuit in his quos elegisti glorificari: Et nunc effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, Spiritum Principalem, quem dedisti dilecto Filio tuo Iesu Christo, quem ipse donavit sanctis Apostolis, qui constituerunt Ecclesiam per singula loca ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indeficientem nominis tui. Da, cordium cognitor Pater,huic servo tuo, quem elegisti ad Episcopatum,ut pascat gregem sanctum tuum, et summum sacerdotium tibi exhibeat sine reprehensione, serviens tibi nocte et die, ut incessanter vultum tuum propitium reddat, et offerat dona sanctae Ecclesiae tuae; da ut virtute Spiritus summi sacerdotii habeat potestatem dimittendi peccata, secundum mandatum tuum; ut distribuat munera secundum praeceptum tuum, et solvat omne vinculum secundum potestatem quam dedisti Apostolis; placeat tibi in mansuetudine et mundo corde, offerens tibi odorem suavitatis, per Filium tuum Iesum Christum, per quem tibi gloria et potentia et honor, cuм Spiritu Sancto in sancta Ecclesia et nunc et in saecula saeculorum."

    [A translation: God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all consolation, you dwell in heaven, yet look with compassion on all that is humble.  You know all things before they came to be; by your gracious word you have established the plan of your Church. From the beginning you chose the descendants of Abraham to be your holy nation.  You established rulers and priests, and did not leave your sanctuary without ministers to serve you.  From the creation of the world you have been pleased to be glorified by those whom you have chosen.So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the Principal Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name. Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever. R.  Amen."]

    [See also, for those who would like to research or study the matter further on their own, and verify Father Pierre Marie's conclusion:

    The 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration: New ECR

    The Traditional Rite of Episcopal Consecration: Traditional ECR ]

    So, even in those 42 words, what Spirit is being poured out? (1) The Father made His Son High Priest, and that same Spirit of High Priesthood is now being poured out (2) The Lord Jesus made His Apostles Bishops, and most certainly not merely Priests, as I'm sure you would agree, and therefore "The Spirit given by Him to His Holy Apostles" is certainly a reference to the Office of Bishop. The remaining words don't pertain to the essential form, but that doesn't matter. The essential form can only refer to Bishops.

    Do you want to argue the Apostles were Priests, not Bishops? Or otherwise, that Our Lord Jesus was not perhaps a High Priest? I don't think you will. Then otherwise, what exactly? Principal Spirit is not the only indicator, even in the essential form alone. Therefore, to say the form is equivocal between the Episcopacy and the simple priesthood on the basis that Principal Spirit alone is not sufficiently clear is (even if true) not enough for those who want to prove the form is invalid or positively doubtful. You have to show that in the whole essential form, there is no portion which clearly signifies the Grace of the Episcopacy given by the Holy Spirit.

    The context of the rite shows what the words of the essential form mean within the form itself. "the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood" is what the essential form means when it says "The Spirit given by Him to His Holy Apostles". And "You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop. May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight" shows what the essential form means when it says "the Principal Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ". What was the Principal Spirit given to Jesus Christ in His Humanity, and to His Apostles? To be Bishop and Shepherd and High Priest. Fr. Cekada wants to argue Principal Spirit can mean different things, not necessarily Episcopacy. Fine, let's grant that. Can the same be said of the remaining 40 words of the essential form? I don't think so. Those words could only refer to the High Priesthood or Episcopacy.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #91 on: May 06, 2019, 06:29:46 AM »
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  • Validity is only one thing, it is not enough; what also matters is that the plenitude of graces, when what is called the "integrity" of the rite is properly adhered to, be conferred. Even if someone says only the "I baptize you ..." with intent to do what the Church does, he will baptize validly, but all the other graces that accompany the rite will be lost. You have Rome's own best exorcists who have said the new rite is terribly weaker than the old rite in exorcising. These are trained and competent exorcists who know what they are talking about. The same is so for all the new rites. They are valid, but the traditional rites confer grace much more super-abundantly. More souls are saved by Tradition, more graces are obtained by the Traditional rites, for the Church, for Her Shepherds and for the world.

    In Michael Davies' Order of Melchizedek, he shows how so much of the grace that accompanied the conferring of the Catholic Priesthood has been lost by the prayers that were suppressed. The predictable and likely result would be that you have Priests who don't know what the Priesthood is and what Priests are required and supposed to be. Thus, there is a major crisis in the Priesthood that only a return to Tradition can heal. Thankfully, all can use the traditional rites to ordain and some Bishops have begun to do so.

    The essential form (words analogous to "I baptize you...") remains almost  identical and because that is intact, the rite is valid.

    Old Essential Form: “Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.”

    New Essential Form:“Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis. Acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.”

    The only difference is the single word "ut" that means "that". The translation is, briefly, “Grant, we beseech You, Almighty Father, to this Your servant, the dignity of the Priesthood; renew in his heart the spirit of holiness, so that [the new one would be almost same, except there may be a fullstop here in place of so that] he may persevere in this office, which is next to ours [means next to the Episcopacy] in dignity, since he has received it from Thee, O God. May the example of his life lead others to moral uprightness.”

    [For those who wish to compare themselves, The new rite of ordination itself: 1968 Ordination Rite

    The traditional rite of Priestly Ordination from Sancta Missa: Traditional Rite of Priestly Ordination]

    Therefore, imho, the true opinion on this matter is that the new rite is valid, but inferior to the traditional rite, because many surrounding graces are lost in it. It is the integrity not essence that is vitiated in the new rite. This point is made clearer in the new rite of priestly ordination, where some prayers not pertaining to the essential form are removed, though the form largely remains. The practical consequence is that immense graces are lost for the Priesthood and the Church, and for our sanctification and salvation.

    And therefore the Treasure of Tradition is necessary for all Bishops and Priests to return to, in order for the Church's Triumph to come.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #92 on: May 06, 2019, 12:46:26 PM »
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  • Hello Clemens Maria. Would you like to address (1) the essential form or "42 words" asks that the Principal or Governing Spirit given to the Apostles is poured out on the Bishop-to-be. Is it doubtful that the Apostles were Bishops and not merely Priests? I've never seen this addressed in any publication by any "nrec is invalid/doubtful" person. (2) Secondly, which to my mind is even more forceful, is it doubtful that Jesus Christ is a High Priest, whom we heard St. Peter describe just this Sunday as "the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." (1 Pet 2:25)? Jesus Christ most certainly has the Mark of the Episcopacy! Now read the "42 words" (italicized) again.

    From: http://sspx.org/en/table-3-validity-new-episcopal-consecrations

    "Deus et Pater Domini nostri Jesu Christi,Pater misericordiarum et Deus totius consolationis,qui in excelsis habitas et humilia respicis,qui cognoscis omnia antequam nascantur,tu qui dedisti in Ecclesia tua normas, per verbum gratiae tuae, qui praedestinasti ex principio genus iustorum ab Abraham, qui constituisti principes et sacerdotes, et sanctuarium tuum sine ministerio non dereliquisti, cui ab initio mundi placuit in his quos elegisti glorificari: Et nunc effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, Spiritum Principalem, quem dedisti dilecto Filio tuo Iesu Christo, quem ipse donavit sanctis Apostolis, qui constituerunt Ecclesiam per singula loca ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indeficientem nominis tui. Da, cordium cognitor Pater,huic servo tuo, quem elegisti ad Episcopatum,ut pascat gregem sanctum tuum, et summum sacerdotium tibi exhibeat sine reprehensione, serviens tibi nocte et die, ut incessanter vultum tuum propitium reddat, et offerat dona sanctae Ecclesiae tuae; da ut virtute Spiritus summi sacerdotii habeat potestatem dimittendi peccata, secundum mandatum tuum; ut distribuat munera secundum praeceptum tuum, et solvat omne vinculum secundum potestatem quam dedisti Apostolis; placeat tibi in mansuetudine et mundo corde, offerens tibi odorem suavitatis, per Filium tuum Iesum Christum, per quem tibi gloria et potentia et honor, cuм Spiritu Sancto in sancta Ecclesia et nunc et in saecula saeculorum."

    [A translation: God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all consolation, you dwell in heaven, yet look with compassion on all that is humble.  You know all things before they came to be; by your gracious word you have established the plan of your Church. From the beginning you chose the descendants of Abraham to be your holy nation.  You established rulers and priests, and did not leave your sanctuary without ministers to serve you.  From the creation of the world you have been pleased to be glorified by those whom you have chosen.So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the Principal Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name. Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever. R.  Amen."]

    [See also, for those who would like to research or study the matter further on their own, and verify Father Pierre Marie's conclusion:

    The 1968 Rite of Episcopal Consecration: New ECR

    The Traditional Rite of Episcopal Consecration: Traditional ECR ]

    So, even in those 42 words, what Spirit is being poured out? (1) The Father made His Son High Priest, and that same Spirit of High Priesthood is now being poured out (2) The Lord Jesus made His Apostles Bishops, and most certainly not merely Priests, as I'm sure you would agree, and therefore "The Spirit given by Him to His Holy Apostles" is certainly a reference to the Office of Bishop. The remaining words don't pertain to the essential form, but that doesn't matter. The essential form can only refer to Bishops.

    Do you want to argue the Apostles were Priests, not Bishops? Or otherwise, that Our Lord Jesus was not perhaps a High Priest? I don't think you will. Then otherwise, what exactly? Principal Spirit is not the only indicator, even in the essential form alone. Therefore, to say the form is equivocal between the Episcopacy and the simple priesthood on the basis that Principal Spirit alone is not sufficiently clear is (even if true) not enough for those who want to prove the form is invalid or positively doubtful. You have to show that in the whole essential form, there is no portion which clearly signifies the Grace of the Episcopacy given by the Holy Spirit.

    The context of the rite shows what the words of the essential form mean within the form itself. "the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood" is what the essential form means when it says "The Spirit given by Him to His Holy Apostles". And "You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop. May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight" shows what the essential form means when it says "the Principal Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ". What was the Principal Spirit given to Jesus Christ in His Humanity, and to His Apostles? To be Bishop and Shepherd and High Priest. Fr. Cekada wants to argue Principal Spirit can mean different things, not necessarily Episcopacy. Fine, let's grant that. Can the same be said of the remaining 40 words of the essential form? I don't think so. Those words could only refer to the High Priesthood or Episcopacy.
    I thought this had already been covered earlier.  Pope Pius XII specified 2 requirements for the form to be valid.  It must invoke the grace of the Holy Ghost and it must make clear the power of the specific order being received.  Fr. Cekada would agree that Spiritus principalis could signify the grace of the Holy Ghost.  But where is the term indicating the power of order?  The Eastern rite forms do specify the power of order and the grace of the Holy Ghost.  Unless you are claiming that Spiritus principalis signifies both the Holy Ghost and the power of order.  That would be novel.  There would be no precedent for it in the Eastern rites.  And the only reason it was supposed that the NREC could be valid in the first place was that it was based on Eastern rites.  But now that it is shown that it isn't comparable to any Eastern rite, its validity is highly doubtful.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #93 on: May 06, 2019, 02:54:16 PM »
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  • Paul VI was the one who specified that the form of the NREC is 42 words.   He didn't say the form was the entire preface.  Whereas the form of the Eastern Rites is universally agreed to be the entire preface.  (...)  But Paul VI said the NREC form is only 42 words and those 42 words don't specify the 2 criteria for a valid form.  Spiritum Principalis (or equivalent) is indeed in the Eastern Rite forms but there is a lot more in them also which does meet Pope Pius's criteria.

    You misrepresented what Paul VI said, as did Fr. Cekada.  He did not limit the form to the 42 words. He explicitly stated that “the form consists of the words of the consecratory prayer,” and then added “of which" the 42 words belonged to the essence and therefore were required for validity.  Here is what he wrote:

    Paul VI: “Finally, in the ordination of a bishop, the matter is the laying of hands by the consecrating Bishops, or at least by the principal Consecrator, done in silence over the head of the Elect before the consecratory prayer; the form consists of the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the following belong to the essence, and are therefore required for validity.  ‘So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, given by the Same to the holy Apostles, who founded the Church in each place, to be your sanctuary in the unceasing glory and praise of your name.’” (Source)

    As you can see, he merely specified which words of the form were essential for validity.  He did not the limit the form to those words alone.  The following is the entire form/consecratory prayer:.

    “Prayer of Consecration

    “26.  Next the principal consecrator, with his hands extended over the bishop-elect, sings the prayer of consecration or says it aloud:

    “God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all consolation, you dwell in heaven, yet look with compassion on all that is humble.  You know all things before they came to be; by your gracious word you have established the plan of your Church.  From the beginning you chose the descendants of Abraham to be your holy nation.  You established rulers and priests, and did not leave your sanctuary without ministers to serve you.  From the creation of the world you have been pleased to be glorified by those whom you have chosen.

    [The following part of the prayer is recited by all the consecrating bishops, with hands joined:]

    “So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.

    [Then the principal consecrator continues alone.]

    “Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop. May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles. May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen.”

    “27.  After the prayer of consecration, the deacons remove the Book of the Gospels which they have been holding above the head of the new bishop.  One of them hold the book until it is given to the bishop.  The principal consecrator and the consecrating bishops, wearing their miters, sit.” (source)  

    There is no doubt whatsoever that this is a valid form for episcopal consecration. Not only is it virtually identical to that which St. Hippolytus said was used by the Apostles themselves, but it clearly and unambiguously satisfies the requirements specified by Pius XII.  
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #94 on: May 07, 2019, 08:34:43 PM »
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  • You misrepresented what Paul VI said, as did Fr. Cekada.  He did not limit the form to the 42 words. He explicitly stated that “the form consists of the words of the consecratory prayer,” and then added “of which" the 42 words belonged to the essence and therefore were required for validity. Here is what he wrote:

    Paul VI: “Finally, in the ordination of a bishop, the matter is the laying of hands by the consecrating Bishops, or at least by the principal Consecrator, done in silence over the head of the Elect before the consecratory prayer; the form consists of the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the following belong to the essence, and are therefore required for validity.  ‘So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, given by the Same to the holy Apostles, who founded the Church in each place, to be your sanctuary in the unceasing glory and praise of your name.’” (Source)

    As you can see, he merely specified which words of the form were essential for validity.  He did not the limit the form to those words alone.

    There is no doubt whatsoever that this is a valid form for episcopal consecration. Not only is it virtually identical to that which St. Hippolytus said was used by the Apostles themselves, but it clearly and unambiguously satisfies the requirements specified by Pius XII.  

    Neither I nor Fr. Cekada have misrepresented what Paul VI said.  Nor did Br Ansgar, Fr. Pierre-Marie, nor Fr Calderon find any fault in Fr Cekada's belief that when Paul VI said "the form consists of the words of the consecratory prayer, of which the following belong to the essence, and are therefore required for validity" means that he is specifying the essential form.  So your spin on it amounts to sophistry.  Fr Calderon conceded that the 42-word consecratory prayer was the essential form but he argued that the surrounding context was enough to give it validity.  Your argument is with Paul VI and Dom Botte who specified the essential form to be 42 words and in 1969 identified Spiritus principalis as the Holy Spirit and in 1974 changed his mind and said it was the power of the episcopacy.  Or maybe you think that they were wrong?  Maybe they didn't know what they were doing?  Did incompetents just stumble into giving us a valid rite?  You should read the rest of Fr Cekada's response where he refutes Fr Calderon.  http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf


    You're whistling past the graveyard, RT.  You should get conditional ordination from an SSPX (or sede) bishop.  And you should certainly not be offering Novus Ordo "Masses".
    Even if you are convinced in your own mind that your ordination was valid, you should still receive conditional ordination for the sake of the people you are trying to help get to Heaven.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #95 on: May 07, 2019, 09:36:14 PM »
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  • http://courseweb.stthomas.edu/jmjoncas/LiturgicalStudiesInternetLinks/ChristianWorship/Texts/Centuries/Texts_1900_2000CE/RCWorshipTexts1900_2000CE/Rite_of_Ordination_of_a_Bishop.htm

    http://www.rosarychurch.net/consecration/paul_6.html

    http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/la/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19680618_pontificalis-romani.html



    Quote
    Prayer of Consecration

    26.  

    (. . .)

    The following part of the prayer is recited by all the consecrating bishops, with hands joined:

    So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.
        
    Then the principal consecrator continues alone.

    Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen.


    Absolutely Null and Utterly Void, Fr. Cekada

    traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf


    Quote
    E. Requirements in a Form for Holy Orders

    What specifically are we looking for in the new rite of episcopal consecration? What must the words of a form for conferring Holy Orders express? Pius XII, in his Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis, laid down the general principle when he declared that for Holy Orders these must “univocally signify the sacramental effects — that is, the power of the Order and the grace of the Holy Ghost.”13

    Note the two elements that it must univocally (i.e., unambiguously) express: the specific order being conferred (diaconate, priesthood or episcopacy) and the
    grace of the Holy Ghost. So we must therefore ascertain whether the new form is indeed “univocal” in expressing these effects.


    Quote
    III. The Paul VI Form

    Paul VI designated the following passage in the Preface as the new form for the consecration of a bishop:

    “So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.”19

    The dispute over the validity of the new Rite of Episcopal Consecration centers on this passage. At first glance, it does seem to mention the Holy Ghost. However, it does not appear to specify the power of Holy Order being conferred — the fullness ofthe priesthood that constitutes the episcopacy — that the traditional form so clearly expressed.



    What Paul VI stated was the essential form doesn't include the sentence with the "office of bishop", but nevertheless the office is specified right after the "essential form" in such a consecration.

    It looks like Fr. Cekada would be right, if only the first sentence was stated. The only thing I think Fr. Cekada proved undoubtedly is that Paul VI erred as to what constitutes the essential form, but it looks to me like the Novus Ordo may indeed have valid bishops.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #96 on: May 07, 2019, 10:06:41 PM »
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  • Trad123, please read the last section of Fr Cekada's response to objections (http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf). He answers Fr Calderon's claim that the surrounding context could give validity to an invalid essential form.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #97 on: May 07, 2019, 10:10:09 PM »
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  • The Validity of the Rite of Episcopal Consecration, Fr. Alvaro Calderon

    Article starts on page 42:

    www.angelusonline.org/uploads/articles_issue_pdf/240_2006_nov.pdf


    Quote
    Fr. Cekada rejects the resemblance to the Coptic rite for two reasons: 1) the form is shorter (42 words versus 340); and 2) it omits the phrases indicative of the bishop’s power of Order, which would in fact be the substantial defect of the new form.

    Form

    The first reason is fallacious because Fr. Cekada takes as the “form” the entire Coptic preface (in reality, a single sentence must be “formal-effective”); and, at the same time, he denies that the context of the new preface can take away the ambiguity of the “formal-effective” phrase of the new rite. But one must choose: if the context does not determine the signification of the form, it would be necessary to identify the “formal-effective” sentence of the Coptic rite and to compare it with that of the new rite; if, on the contrary, the context determines the signification, then it is necessary to compare one complete preface with the other complete preface. It is fallacious to compare a complete preface, on the one hand, with the “formal effective” sentence on the other.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #98 on: May 07, 2019, 10:12:46 PM »
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  • The only good answer to Fr Cekada would be to say that the form has to be valid because it was promulgated by the Pope who cannot possibly impose a harmful liturgical rite on the faithful.  But for obvious reasons that is not an argument that any R&R traditionalist would want to make.  And besides there is plenty of doubt about the legitimacy of Paul VI's claim to the papacy.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #99 on: May 07, 2019, 10:15:17 PM »
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  • Trad123, please read the last section of Fr Cekada's response to objections (http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf). He answers Fr Calderon's claim that the surrounding context could give validity to an invalid essential form.
    Still haven't read it, have you?

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #100 on: May 07, 2019, 10:19:26 PM »
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  • Trad123, please read the last section of Fr Cekada's response to objections (http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf). He answers Fr Calderon's claim that the surrounding context could give validity to an invalid essential form.

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf


    Quote
    B. Context of the New Form

    Fr. Calderon would have us look to the context of the new form for assurance of its validity.

    He says:

    “This context is very ample because it cannot be reduced to the Preface alone; the complete rite must be taken into consideration.”

    From a quote by Leo XIII that speaks of the removal of all idea of consecration and sacrifice from Anglican ordination rites, Fr. Calderon extrapolates the following principle: if in the rest of the rite “consecration and sacrifice were involved,” the rite would have“consistency.”59

    In response:

    • Fr. Calderon cites no authorities to support his principle about “involvement” producing “consistency”— whatever those nebulous terms may mean.

    Fr. Calderon, however, has not even gotten to the point where he could make an argument from context. He has not demonstrated that the new form — even equivocally — contains both elements that Pius XII required in the sacramental form for Holy Orders: the power of the Order and the grace of the Holy Ghost.

    I'm not interested in the first bullet point.

    I have to ask, is that it?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #101 on: May 07, 2019, 10:27:52 PM »
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  • I concede the essential form by itself omits stating the office, but two sentences later, it is stated, unequivocally.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #102 on: May 07, 2019, 11:34:08 PM »
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  • www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf


    Quote
    B. Application to the New Form

    (. . .)

    8. The new form fails to meet two criteria for the form for Holy Orders laid down by Pius XII.

    (a) Because the term governing Spirit is capable of signifying many different things and persons, it does not univocally signify the sacramental effect.
    (b) It lacks any term that even equivocally connotes the power of Order that a bishop possess — the “fullness of the priesthood of Christ in the episcopal office and order,” or “the fullness or totality of the priestly ministry.”


    http://courseweb.stthomas.edu/jmjoncas/LiturgicalStudiesInternetLinks/ChristianWorship/Texts/Centuries/Texts_1900_2000CE/RCWorshipTexts1900_2000CE/Rite_of_Ordination_of_a_Bishop.htm


    Quote
    So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.
        

    Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen.


    Does someone have a link to the old rite of consecration, in English? 
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #103 on: May 07, 2019, 11:50:07 PM »
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  • Hi Trad123, I believe I gave it earlier. Anyway, this is the portion, with the essential form specified by Pope Ven. Pius XII in red. "Prayer of Consecration of a Bishop in the Old: "THE CONSECRATION OF A BISHOP - It is truly worthy and just, right and profitable unto salvation that we should at all times and in all places give thanks unto Thee, O holy Lord, Father Almighty, Eternal God, honor of all dignities which serve unto Thy glory in sacred orders. To Thee O God, who, in the secret communings of familiar intercourse, giving instruction unto Moses Thy servant, concerning, among other branches of divine worship, the nature of sacerdotal vesture, didst order that Aaron, Thy chosen one, should be clad in mystic robes during the sacred functions, so that succeeding generations might be enlightened by the examples of their predecessors, lest the knowledge derived from Thy instruction should be wanting in any age. Since, in deed, with the ancients, the very appearance of symbols would obtain reverence, and with us there would be the experience of the things themselves more certain than the mysteries of figures. For the adornment of our minds fulfils what was expressed by the outward vesture of that ancient priesthood, and now brightness of souls rather than splendor of raiment commends the pontifical glory unto us. Because even those things which then were sightly unto the eyes of the flesh, demanded rather that the eyes of the spirit should understand the things they signified. And therefore we beseech Thee, O Lord, give bountifully this grace to this Thy servant, whom Thou hast chosen to the ministry of the Supreme Priesthood, so that what things soever those vestments signify by the refulgence of gold, the splendor of Jєωels, and the variety of diversified works, these may shine forth in his character and his actions. Fill up in Thy Priest the perfection of Thy ministry and sanctify with the dew of Thy heavenly ointment this Thy servant decked out with the or naments of all beauty." See: https://archive.org/details/consecrationbish00unknuoft Supreme Priesthood, Perfection of Thy Ministry etc etc are all references to the High Priesthood or Episcopacy. Also note the examples of the invocation of Moses and Aaron etc who were High Priests under the old law and this same Grace is invoked in the Consecration. The entire prayer of Consecration is always important to take into account, since it pertains to integrity; no doubt the essential form confers validity.

    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    It must invoke the grace of the Holy Ghost and it must make clear the power of the specific order being received.

    Ok.

    Quote
    Fr. Cekada would agree that Spiritus principalis could signify the grace of the Holy Ghost.  But where is the term indicating the power of order?

    Ok, Spiritus Principalis is taken as signifying the Grace of the Holy Ghost. What specifies the Power of the Episcopacy here, then? The continuing portion of the essential form itself that says "The Spirit given by Him to His Holy Apostles". It seems clear the Apostles were Bishops, therefore an invocation of the Spirit given to the Apostles can hardly refer to anything other than the Episcopacy.

    Priests in the mainstream Church like RomanTheo should make the right decision to start offering the Tridentine Mass, and receive conditional ordination, if a Traditional Catholic Bishop, after judging all the specifics of the situation, were to recommend doing so.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #104 on: May 07, 2019, 11:53:28 PM »
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  • Thank you, I found it just as you were posting.

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

    Sacramentum Ordinis, On the Sacrament of Order, Pope Pius XII - 1947

    Quote
    5.

    (. . .)

    Finally in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

    “Comple in Sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summam, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore santifica.”

    [“Perfect in Thy priest the fullness of thy ministry and, clothing him in all the ornaments of spiritual glorification, sanctify him with the Heavenly anointing.”]

    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.