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Author Topic: Question about New Rite of NO  (Read 16993 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #100 on: May 07, 2019, 10:19:26 PM »
Trad123, please read the last section of Fr Cekada's response to objections (http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf). He answers Fr Calderon's claim that the surrounding context could give validity to an invalid essential form.

http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf


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B. Context of the New Form

Fr. Calderon would have us look to the context of the new form for assurance of its validity.

He says:

“This context is very ample because it cannot be reduced to the Preface alone; the complete rite must be taken into consideration.”

From a quote by Leo XIII that speaks of the removal of all idea of consecration and sacrifice from Anglican ordination rites, Fr. Calderon extrapolates the following principle: if in the rest of the rite “consecration and sacrifice were involved,” the rite would have“consistency.”59

In response:

• Fr. Calderon cites no authorities to support his principle about “involvement” producing “consistency”— whatever those nebulous terms may mean.

Fr. Calderon, however, has not even gotten to the point where he could make an argument from context. He has not demonstrated that the new form — even equivocally — contains both elements that Pius XII required in the sacramental form for Holy Orders: the power of the Order and the grace of the Holy Ghost.

I'm not interested in the first bullet point.

I have to ask, is that it?

Offline trad123

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Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #101 on: May 07, 2019, 10:27:52 PM »
I concede the essential form by itself omits stating the office, but two sentences later, it is stated, unequivocally.


Offline trad123

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Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #102 on: May 07, 2019, 11:34:08 PM »
www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf


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B. Application to the New Form

(. . .)

8. The new form fails to meet two criteria for the form for Holy Orders laid down by Pius XII.

(a) Because the term governing Spirit is capable of signifying many different things and persons, it does not univocally signify the sacramental effect.
(b) It lacks any term that even equivocally connotes the power of Order that a bishop possess — the “fullness of the priesthood of Christ in the episcopal office and order,” or “the fullness or totality of the priestly ministry.”


http://courseweb.stthomas.edu/jmjoncas/LiturgicalStudiesInternetLinks/ChristianWorship/Texts/Centuries/Texts_1900_2000CE/RCWorshipTexts1900_2000CE/Rite_of_Ordination_of_a_Bishop.htm


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So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.
    

Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen.


Does someone have a link to the old rite of consecration, in English? 

Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #103 on: May 07, 2019, 11:50:07 PM »
Hi Trad123, I believe I gave it earlier. Anyway, this is the portion, with the essential form specified by Pope Ven. Pius XII in red. "Prayer of Consecration of a Bishop in the Old: "THE CONSECRATION OF A BISHOP - It is truly worthy and just, right and profitable unto salvation that we should at all times and in all places give thanks unto Thee, O holy Lord, Father Almighty, Eternal God, honor of all dignities which serve unto Thy glory in sacred orders. To Thee O God, who, in the secret communings of familiar intercourse, giving instruction unto Moses Thy servant, concerning, among other branches of divine worship, the nature of sacerdotal vesture, didst order that Aaron, Thy chosen one, should be clad in mystic robes during the sacred functions, so that succeeding generations might be enlightened by the examples of their predecessors, lest the knowledge derived from Thy instruction should be wanting in any age. Since, in deed, with the ancients, the very appearance of symbols would obtain reverence, and with us there would be the experience of the things themselves more certain than the mysteries of figures. For the adornment of our minds fulfils what was expressed by the outward vesture of that ancient priesthood, and now brightness of souls rather than splendor of raiment commends the pontifical glory unto us. Because even those things which then were sightly unto the eyes of the flesh, demanded rather that the eyes of the spirit should understand the things they signified. And therefore we beseech Thee, O Lord, give bountifully this grace to this Thy servant, whom Thou hast chosen to the ministry of the Supreme Priesthood, so that what things soever those vestments signify by the refulgence of gold, the splendor of jewels, and the variety of diversified works, these may shine forth in his character and his actions. Fill up in Thy Priest the perfection of Thy ministry and sanctify with the dew of Thy heavenly ointment this Thy servant decked out with the or naments of all beauty." See: https://archive.org/details/consecrationbish00unknuoft Supreme Priesthood, Perfection of Thy Ministry etc etc are all references to the High Priesthood or Episcopacy. Also note the examples of the invocation of Moses and Aaron etc who were High Priests under the old law and this same Grace is invoked in the Consecration. The entire prayer of Consecration is always important to take into account, since it pertains to integrity; no doubt the essential form confers validity.

Quote from: Clemens Maria
It must invoke the grace of the Holy Ghost and it must make clear the power of the specific order being received.

Ok.

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Fr. Cekada would agree that Spiritus principalis could signify the grace of the Holy Ghost.  But where is the term indicating the power of order?

Ok, Spiritus Principalis is taken as signifying the Grace of the Holy Ghost. What specifies the Power of the Episcopacy here, then? The continuing portion of the essential form itself that says "The Spirit given by Him to His Holy Apostles". It seems clear the Apostles were Bishops, therefore an invocation of the Spirit given to the Apostles can hardly refer to anything other than the Episcopacy.

Priests in the mainstream Church like RomanTheo should make the right decision to start offering the Tridentine Mass, and receive conditional ordination, if a Traditional Catholic Bishop, after judging all the specifics of the situation, were to recommend doing so.

Offline trad123

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Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #104 on: May 07, 2019, 11:53:28 PM »
Thank you, I found it just as you were posting.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

Sacramentum Ordinis, On the Sacrament of Order, Pope Pius XII - 1947

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5.

(. . .)

Finally in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

“Comple in Sacerdote tuo ministerii tui summam, et ornamentis totius glorificationis instructum coelestis unguenti rore santifica.”

[“Perfect in Thy priest the fullness of thy ministry and, clothing him in all the ornaments of spiritual glorification, sanctify him with the Heavenly anointing.”]