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Author Topic: Question about New Rite of NO  (Read 16186 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2019, 08:14:37 AM »
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  • The question should not be whether it is logistically possible, but, rather, will any Conciliar "priests" or "bishops" seek valid orders and will RomanTheo be one of them?

    Fixed that for you.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #76 on: May 04, 2019, 11:22:28 AM »
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  • Fixed that for you.
    We get it, 2Vermont, you don’t believe any New Rites of Consecration/Ordination are valid.

    Who needs the Church to render a verdict on this EXTREMELY complicated issue? We’ve got you!


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #77 on: May 04, 2019, 11:46:56 AM »
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  • We get it, 2Vermont, you don’t believe any New Rites of Consecration/Ordination are valid.

    Who needs the Church to render a verdict on this EXTREMELY complicated issue? We’ve got you!
    Actually, my position on CI is that I don't think any are certainly valid.  If you're going to get sarcastic, at least get your facts correct.  To be clear, I have less doubt with the New Rite of Ordination.  However, Roman Theo is most likely ordained in the New Rite by a man consecrated in the New Rite.  I wouldn't trust anything he says here.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #78 on: May 04, 2019, 12:23:08 PM »
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  • Quote
    However, Roman Theo is most likely ordained in the New Rite by a man consecrated in the New Rite.  I wouldn't trust anything he says here.
    Facts are facts, and I'm interested in RomanTheo's responses.  A complex problem deserves looking at all angels to find a solution.  Viewing his arguments based on his background is emotional and distracting.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #79 on: May 04, 2019, 12:34:02 PM »
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  • Facts are facts, and I'm interested in RomanTheo's responses.  A complex problem deserves looking at all angels to find a solution.  Viewing his arguments based on his background is emotional and distracting.
    Except if one is ordained in the New Rite they already have an inherent bias.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #80 on: May 04, 2019, 05:29:03 PM »
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  • I agree with Pax that regardless of background, the argument can be judged on its own merits.

    And I agree with 2V that RT's pedigree will likely (but not necessarily) make him biased.

    Which of us can truly ever step outside of ourselves in those things which impact us so intimately to render a truly impartial opinion?  It can be done, but it usually isn't.

    My position is to acknowledge the possibility of a priori bias, but nevertheless judge the argument on its own merit.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #81 on: May 04, 2019, 05:41:03 PM »
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  • While the Novus Ordo was universally (in every vernacular translation) using "for you and for all" during the Consecration, it was very likely invalid.

    Now that they have reverted to "for you and for many", and since their Anaphora 1 (i.e. Canon 1) is almost verbatim the Tridentine Canon, I think that it's likely valid ... when they use that Canon.  Not so sure about the other ones.

    BUT, ironically, as if by design, they only reverted to the valid formula of consecration after nearly all the pre-1968 ordained priest had died or retired.  So the NOM is still positively doubtful, but now it's more due to the fact that the New Rites of Ordination/Consecration are positively doubtful.

    But if a validly-ordained priest offered the NOM using Anaphora I, I believe that it's most likely valid ... although I still think there's room for positive doubt (due to their having messed with the Offertory).


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #82 on: May 04, 2019, 05:49:50 PM »
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  • I agree with Pax that regardless of background, the argument can be judged on its own merits.

    And I agree with 2V that RT's pedigree will likely (but not necessarily) make him biased.

    Which of us can truly ever step outside of ourselves in those things which impact us so intimately to render a truly impartial opinion?  It can be done, but it usually isn't.

    My position is to acknowledge the possibility of a priori bias, but nevertheless judge the argument on its own merit.
    It could be true, but humans are biased.  That's just life.  To completely ignore anything he says because someone thinks his ordination is invalid seems unreasonable to me.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #83 on: May 05, 2019, 08:22:50 AM »
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  • While the Novus Ordo was universally (in every vernacular translation) using "for you and for all" during the Consecration, it was very likely invalid.

    Now that they have reverted to "for you and for many", and since their Anaphora 1 (i.e. Canon 1) is almost verbatim the Tridentine Canon, I think that it's likely valid ... when they use that Canon.  Not so sure about the other ones.

    BUT, ironically, as if by design, they only reverted to the valid formula of consecration after nearly all the pre-1968 ordained priest had died or retired.  So the NOM is still positively doubtful, but now it's more due to the fact that the New Rites of Ordination/Consecration are positively doubtful.

    But if a validly-ordained priest offered the NOM using Anaphora I, I believe that it's most likely valid ... although I still think there's room for positive doubt (due to their having messed with the Offertory).
    I don't understand what's the big deal about "many" vs "all". "pro multis" can be translated as "for many" and "for the many". Multis in Latin doesn't specify whether it's the entirety of a group or not, just the quantity. Many can be all of a group in Latin. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #84 on: May 05, 2019, 11:55:25 AM »
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  • Many is not all.  Many means almost all.  Using "many" is Apostolic because Christ knew that not all would accept Him, therefore His sufferings were not for them.

    Offline Laud A Haug

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #85 on: May 05, 2019, 01:24:32 PM »
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  •  
    Quote
    Many means almost all.

    "Many" doesn't mean almost all. "Many" means a sizable amount, which is relative. "Many" can mean a sizable minority. "Most" means almost all. A "majority" means at least half plus one.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #86 on: May 05, 2019, 04:45:47 PM »
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  • That’s better.  Thank you. 

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #87 on: May 05, 2019, 09:17:20 PM »
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  • While the Novus Ordo was universally (in every vernacular translation) using "for you and for all" during the Consecration, it was very likely invalid.
    That would be claiming that "for many" is essential to validity of the form.
    The contrary view common in the Roman Rite is that "this is my body" and "this is my blood" are the essential parts. Some add that the words also need to signify sacrifice in some way.
    At the extreme is the anaphora of Addai and Mari, which does signify a change of substance and sacrifice but doesn't use "this is..." or any words of institution, and the Vatican recognizes it as valid. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #88 on: May 05, 2019, 11:11:55 PM »
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  • I thought the council of Florence defined the exact formula for the consecration of the wine?

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #89 on: May 05, 2019, 11:45:21 PM »
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  • De Defectibus
    Pope St. Pius V



    Quote
    V - Defects of the form
    20. Defects on the part of the form may arise if anything is missing from the complete wording required for the act of consecrating. Now the words of the Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are:


    HOC EST ENIM CORPUS MEUM,
     and HIC EST ENIM CALIX SANGUINIS MEI, NOVI ET AETERNI TESTAMENTI: MYSTERIUM FIDEI: QUI PRO VOBIS ET PRO MULTIS EFFUNDETUR IN REMISSIONEM PECCATORUM


    If the priest were to shorten or change the form of the consecration of the Body and the Blood, so that in the change of wording the words did not mean the same thing, he would not be achieving a valid Sacrament. If, on the other hand, he were to add or take away anything which did not change the meaning, the Sacrament would be valid, but he would be committing a grave sin.