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Author Topic: Question about New Rite of NO  (Read 8037 times)

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Offline X

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Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2019, 09:42:48 PM »
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  • That's it.  That the argument against the new rite, or at least the argument that causes people to doubt the validity.

    What I would suggest is that you research that point.  Don't set out to defend what Bishop Tissier said, but look into it yourself with an open mind and see what you find.

    What you will be trying to determine is if the phrase "spiritul principalem" signifies the sacramental effect, by referring to the office of bishop.   All that is required for a valid form is that 1) the Holy Ghost is called upon to 2) raise the person to the office of Bishop.  The Holy Ghost is clearly mentioned in the new form. The argument is that the phrase spiritual principalem does not sufficiently indicate the office of Bishop.

    If you look into that argument yourself I bet you come away with no doubts about the validity of the new rite, but only if you look into it honestly with an open mind. I would start with Fr. Pierre-Marie's article and see what he has to say about the phrase.  

    Also keep in mind that words mean what the Church understands them to mean.  If a heretical sect uses a theological or doctrine term that the Catholic Church uses, but understanding of the term differently, their meaning of the word of phraase doesn't have any effect whatsoever on what the Church means when it uses the same word or phrase.  This fact will help you see through one of Fr. Cekada's nonsensical arguments, which is the same nonsensical argument used by Rama Coomerswami.

    Do you really think I haven’t looked into the argument myself?

    How then did I become aware of the doubts of Lefebvre, Williamson, de Mallerais, Cekada, Coomaraswamy, and others?

    Archbishop Lefebvre doubted the new Rite, and I prefer to place my trust in his  authority rather than my own.

    Bishop Williamson and Bishop Tissier share those doubts.

    Fr Pierre-Marie wrote a poor article which, besides being unconvincing, departed from them.

    Why he might have done so is open to question, but what is not open to question is that his arguments do not withstand the criticisms of Lefebvre, Cekada, Williamson, Coomaraswamy, and de Mallerais.

    When the sedes and RR camps are in agreement, the argument becomes rather compelling.


    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #31 on: February 19, 2019, 10:11:13 PM »
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  • Fr. Celier likes to speak about “context.”

    He did it in his book “Benedict XVI and the Traditionalists” in his four rules for interpreting Archbishop Lefebvre (the last of which suggested that since Lefebvre was a practical, rather than systematic thinker, he was prone to contradict himself when circuмstances changed, and in fact had allegedly done so with regard to being open to an agreement with Rome, despite his many other statements to the contrary).

    So sayeth the book which opens with a foreword from a Freemason!

    The same argument is tried here a couple years earlier: Use “context” to broaden the subject matter under consideration.

    But Cekada (and de Mallerais) blow that one out of the water:

    ”Meaning Derived from Context?

    Fr. Celier enunciates the following principle: “In reality, the words of the sacramental formula should be referred to a three-fold field of meaning. For it is erroneous to require that a text express a sense in a comprehensible way outside of any other context.”

    Here Fr. Celier takes up the nebulous double-talk of modernist sacramental theology, which dismisses pre-Vatican II teaching on essential sacramental forms as a theology of “magic words.”

    Like Fr. Celier, the modernists propose instead a “broader context” that effects a sacrament. In my days in a modernist seminary, many was the time I heard priests and fellow seminarians say that pronouncing the Words of Consecration at Mass was not important because “the whole Eucharistic Prayer was consecratory.”

    This is also the same theology that allowed Ratzinger and John Paul II to declare in 2001 that when the Nestorian schismatics use the Anaphora (Canon) of Addai and Marai for their Mass, it is valid, even though it does not contain the Words of Consecration — or even mention the Body and Blood of Christ.

    But according to traditional Catholic sacramental theology, “context” cannot supply validity when an essential element is omitted from the sacramental form.

    Thus for example, although the “context” of the traditional baptismal rite contains prayers that explicitly mention baptism, cleansing and the life of grace, this context cannot render the sacrament valid if the priest substantially changes or omits an essential word (e.g., “baptize,” “I,” “you,” “Father,” etc.) in the essential sacramental formula.

    The rite is invalid, period.

    Nor would the “implicit” signification that Fr. Celier proposes for an essential sacramental form produce a valid baptism. If a priest says “I baptize you in the name of God,” the baptism will still be invalid, even though the surrounding context “implies” the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.”


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #32 on: February 20, 2019, 12:18:18 AM »
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  • The rite is invalid, period.

    Nothing you wrote touched upon the question.  Why does spiritum principalem not suffice to signify the sacramental effect? That is the only question that matters at this point.
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #33 on: February 20, 2019, 04:38:47 AM »
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  • Nothing you wrote touched upon the question.  Why does spiritum principalem not suffice to signify the sacramental effect? That is the only question that matters at this point.

    Fr. Cekada:

    “The dispute hinges on the essential sacramental form for the episcopacy — the one sentence in the rite that contains what is necessary and sufficient to consecrate a true bishop. Put very simply, my argument was this:

    • In his Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII taught that a form for conferring Holy Orders must univocally (unambiguously) signify the sacramental effects: the power of the Order received (deacon, priest or bishop) and the grace of the Holy Ghost.

    • In 1968 the post-Vatican II reformers completely changed the essential sacramental form for episcopal consecration. In the process, they removed one of these essential ideas: the power of Holy Orders (potestas Ordinis) that a bishop receives.

    • According to the general principles of Catholic sacramental theology, if a sacramental form is changed in such a way as to remove an essential idea, the form becomes invalid.

    • The new form, I therefore concluded, is invalid. Consequently, those consecrated with this rite are not true bishops.

    A key point of dispute in the debate concerned the meaning in the new form of the Latin phrase Spiritus principalis — rendered into English as “governing Spirit” and into French as “l’Esprit qui fait les chefs.”

    Those who defended the validity of the new rite maintained that this expression unambiguously signified the episcopacy.

    I demonstrated that it did not — I unearthed at least a dozen different meanings for it — and that in the new form itself, the expression means nothing more than the Holy Ghost, merely one of the required elements for a valid sacramental form for Holy Orders.

    In my articles I had presented all this in a systematic fashion and cited various treatises to support each point of my argument.

    In his editorial, however, Fr. Celier did not respond with a systematic theological argument of his own. Rather, he launched a personal attack against the members of Rore Sanctifica and myself— and then recycled the objections of a modernist Benedictine that I had already answered.

    Since Fr. Celier’s editorial will be translated and widely circulated, I will answer these objections once again. I will conclude by pointing out how the use of these arguments by Fr. Celier and others indicates a larger problem within SSPX.”

    NB: My only distinction here is that where Fr Cekada says “invalid,” I say “doubtful.”

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #34 on: February 20, 2019, 08:28:16 AM »
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  • Quote
    So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.
    Suppose Fr Cekada is wrong and there are not multiple meanings for “governing spirit” and that it univocally defines the power of the episcopacy.  Where is the second requirement for validity, specifically where is the grace of the Holy Ghost mentioned?  Or if you are going to take the position that “governing spirit” univocally defines both the power of the episcopacy and the grace of the Holy Ghost, please cite a pre-Vatican 2 source for such a definition.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #35 on: February 20, 2019, 10:43:40 AM »
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  • “The dispute hinges on the essential sacramental form for the episcopacy — the one sentence in the rite that contains what is necessary and sufficient to consecrate a true bishop. Put very simply, my argument was this:
     
    • In his Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII taught that a form for conferring Holy Orders must univocally (unambiguously) signify the sacramental effects: the power of the Order received (deacon, priest or bishop) and the grace of the Holy Ghost.
     
    In 1968 the post-Vatican II reformers completely changed the essential sacramental form for episcopal consecration. In the process, they removed one of these essential ideas: the power of Holy Orders (potestas Ordinis) that a bishop receives.
     
    • According to the general principles of Catholic sacramental theology, if a sacramental form is changed in such a way as to remove an essential idea, the form becomes invalid.
     
    The new form, I therefore concluded, is invalid. Consequently, those consecrated with this rite are not true bishops.
     
    A key point [no, the key point] of dispute in the debate concerned the meaning in the new form of the Latin phrase Spiritus principalis — rendered into English as “governing Spirit” and into French as “l’Esprit qui fait les chefs.”
     
    Those who defended the validity of the new rite maintained that this expression unambiguously signified the episcopacy.
     
    I demonstrated that it did not — I unearthed at least a dozen different meanings for it — and that in the new form itself, the expression means nothing more than the Holy Ghost, merely one of the required elements for a valid sacramental form for Holy Orders.
    Your post was helpful in allowing us to drill down to the main point of the dispute, but it failed utterly in showing why “spiritus principalis” does not univocally to signify the sacramental effect.

    What you did show is Fr. Cekada’s reason for believing why it does not, namely, because he looked up the definition of principalis and found that the word has more than one meaning (just like every other word in the dictionary), and since it has more than one meaning the word is ambiguous, rather than univocal, and therefore does not “univocally” refer to the office of bishop.   

    If Fr. Cekada’s reasoning were correct, every sacrament would be invalid, or at least highly doubtful. 

    Let’s look at the old form of episcopal consecration as one example.   Keep in mind that to be valid, the form must signify two things: 1) the Holy Ghost and 2) the office of the episcopate.   And according to Fr. Cekada, if there is any ambiguity it is invalid.  The bold parts below are supposed to signify the episcoate and the Holy Ghost

    Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis: “Finally in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:  ‘Perfect in Thy priest the fullness of thy ministry and, clothing him in all the ornaments of spiritual glorification, sanctify him with the Heavenly anointing’.” 

    Does the phrase “fullness of thy ministry” univocally signify the office of bishop?   How many meanings do you think Fr. Cekada could unearth for the word “ministry”?    And what about “heavenly anointing”?  Who would have ever guessed that’s a reference to the Holy Ghost?

    If you apply Fr. Cekada’s argument to the old form, the only conclusion an honest person can reach is that the old rite of episcopal consecration ‘is absolutely null and utterly void,’ or at least highly doubtful (and hence must be avoided).  Therefore, there must be a flaw somewhere in Fr. Cekada’ reasoning.  And indeed there is... 
     
    The flaw is a misunderstanding of what suffices for a univocal signification.  It doesn’t mean the word (i.e, “ministry”) can have only one possible meaning, or even that the word or phrase (“Heavenly anointing”) must unambiguously be understood as referring to what it signifies.  All that is required for a univocal signification is that the word or phrase be accepted and used by the Church as meaning what it is intended to signify.

    This brings us to Fr. Cekada’s misrepresentation of what Pius XII teaches in Sacramentum Ordinis.  Here is what he wrote:

    Fr. Cekada: “Pius XII taught that a form for conferring Holy Orders must univocally (unambiguously) signify the sacramental effects: the power of the Order received (deacon, priest or bishop) and the grace of the Holy Ghost.”

    That’s not what Pius XII taught.  This is what he wrote:

    Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis: “Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects – namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit – and which are accepted and used by the Church in that sense.”

    The reason the words univocally signify the sacramental effect is because they “are accepted and used by the Church in that sense,” regardless of how many definitions Fr. Cekada can “unearth” for the same word or phrase. 
     
    And the phrase “spiritus principalis” has been used by the Church to refer to the office of bishops since the earliest centuries, and probably during the time of the apostles.  Do a google search of “spiritual principalis” and “ordination” or “consecration” and you will find that the form used for episcopal consecration in the most ancient rites uses the phrase spiritus principalis.  In fact, the entire form in these ancient rites is virtually identical to the "new" form used by Paul VI.  There is no doubt whatsoever that the form used in the new rite is valid.  It is more ancient and less ambiguous than the old form. 
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #36 on: February 20, 2019, 11:12:26 AM »
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  • Your post was helpful in allowing us to drill down to the main point of the dispute, but it failed utterly in showing why “spiritus principalis” does not univocally to signify the sacramental effect.

    What you did show is Fr. Cekada’s reason for believing why it does not, namely, because he looked up the definition of principalis and found that the word has more than one meaning (just like every other word in the dictionary), and since it has more than one meaning the word is ambiguous, rather than univocal, and therefore does not “univocally” refer to the office of bishop.  

    If Fr. Cekada’s reasoning were correct, every sacrament would be invalid, or at least highly doubtful.  

    Let’s look at the old form of episcopal consecration as one example.   Keep in mind that to be valid, the form must signify two things: 1) the Holy Ghost and 2) the office of the episcopate.   And according to Fr. Cekada, if there is any ambiguity it is invalid.  The bold parts below are supposed to signify the episcoate and the Holy Ghost

    Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis: “Finally in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:  ‘Perfect in Thy priest the fullness of thy ministry and, clothing him in all the ornaments of spiritual glorification, sanctify him with the Heavenly anointing’.”

    Does the phrase “fullness of thy ministry” univocally signify the office of bishop?   How many meanings do you think Fr. Cekada could unearth for the word “ministry”?    And what about “heavenly anointing”?  Who would have ever guessed that’s a reference to the Holy Ghost?

    If you apply Fr. Cekada’s argument to the old form, the only conclusion an honest person can reach is that the old rite of episcopal consecration ‘is absolutely null and utterly void,’ or at least highly doubtful (and hence must be avoided).  Therefore, there must be a flaw somewhere in Fr. Cekada’ reasoning.  And indeed there is...

    The flaw is a misunderstanding of what suffices for a univocal signification.  It doesn’t mean the word (i.e, “ministry”) can have only one possible meaning, or even that the word or phrase (“Heavenly anointing”) must unambiguously be understood as referring to what it signifies. All that is required for a univocal signification is that the word or phrase be accepted and used by the Church as meaning what it is intended to signify.

    This brings us to Fr. Cekada’s misrepresentation of what Pius XII teaches in Sacramentum Ordinis.  Here is what he wrote:

    Fr. Cekada: “Pius XII taught that a form for conferring Holy Orders must univocally (unambiguously) signify the sacramental effects: the power of the Order received (deacon, priest or bishop) and the grace of the Holy Ghost.”

    That’s not what Pius XII taught.  This is what he wrote:

    Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis: “Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects – namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit – and which are accepted and used by the Church in that sense.”

    The reason the words univocally signify the sacramental effect is because they “are accepted and used by the Church in that sense,” regardless of how many definitions Fr. Cekada can “unearth” for the same word or phrase.

    And the phrase “spiritus principalis” has been used by the Church to refer to the office of bishops since the earliest centuries, and probably during the time of the apostles.  Do a google search of “spiritual principalis” and “ordination” or “consecration” and you will find that the form used for episcopal consecration in the most ancient rites uses the phrase spiritus principalis.  In fact, the entire form in these ancient rites is virtually identical to the "new" form used by Paul VI.  There is no doubt whatsoever that the form used in the new rite is valid.  It is more ancient and less ambiguous than the old form.  

    Greetings RT-

    I have just alerted Fr. Cekada of your contention, and asked him if he cares to defend his thesis and rebut your comments.

    I will let you know how/when/if he responds (presuming he responds to me before posting here directly).

    Meanwhile, I find it very interesting that Bishop Tissier, Fr Cekada, Coomaraswamy, the Rore Sanctifica, et al havecall cited the ambiguity of the essential sacramental form as cause for positive doubt on the validity of the new Rite.

    But if your simple explanation (ie., every word is ambiguous, therefore there really is no ambiguity here) is correct, it evinces a rather remarkable ineptitude in Bishop Tissier to make such a mistake (an ineptitude which runs contrary to his reputation).

    But I suspect you did not actually read Fr Cekada’s discussion on this he ambiguity of the phrase in question, but rather simply responded to my reference to it.

    So while we await a response from Fr Cekada, let’s go see what he had to say on the matter of the alleged ambiguity of the essential form andbphrase in question...

    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #37 on: February 20, 2019, 11:31:28 AM »
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  • Your post was helpful in allowing us to drill down to the main point of the dispute, but it failed utterly in showing why “spiritus principalis” does not univocally to signify the sacramental effect.

    What you did show is Fr. Cekada’s reason for believing why it does not, namely, because he looked up the definition of principalis and found that the word has more than one meaning (just like every other word in the dictionary), and since it has more than one meaning the word is ambiguous, rather than univocal, and therefore does not “univocally” refer to the office of bishop.  

    If Fr. Cekada’s reasoning were correct, every sacrament would be invalid, or at least highly doubtful.  

    Let’s look at the old form of episcopal consecration as one example.   Keep in mind that to be valid, the form must signify two things: 1) the Holy Ghost and 2) the office of the episcopate.   And according to Fr. Cekada, if there is any ambiguity it is invalid.  The bold parts below are supposed to signify the episcoate and the Holy Ghost

    Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis: “Finally in the Episcopal Ordination or Consecration, the matter is the imposition of hands which is done by the Bishop consecrator. The form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:  ‘Perfect in Thy priest the fullness of thy ministry and, clothing him in all the ornaments of spiritual glorification, sanctify him with the Heavenly anointing’.”

    Does the phrase “fullness of thy ministry” univocally signify the office of bishop?   How many meanings do you think Fr. Cekada could unearth for the word “ministry”?    And what about “heavenly anointing”?  Who would have ever guessed that’s a reference to the Holy Ghost?

    If you apply Fr. Cekada’s argument to the old form, the only conclusion an honest person can reach is that the old rite of episcopal consecration ‘is absolutely null and utterly void,’ or at least highly doubtful (and hence must be avoided).  Therefore, there must be a flaw somewhere in Fr. Cekada’ reasoning.  And indeed there is...

    The flaw is a misunderstanding of what suffices for a univocal signification.  It doesn’t mean the word (i.e, “ministry”) can have only one possible meaning, or even that the word or phrase (“Heavenly anointing”) must unambiguously be understood as referring to what it signifies. All that is required for a univocal signification is that the word or phrase be accepted and used by the Church as meaning what it is intended to signify.

    This brings us to Fr. Cekada’s misrepresentation of what Pius XII teaches in Sacramentum Ordinis.  Here is what he wrote:

    Fr. Cekada: “Pius XII taught that a form for conferring Holy Orders must univocally (unambiguously) signify the sacramental effects: the power of the Order received (deacon, priest or bishop) and the grace of the Holy Ghost.”

    That’s not what Pius XII taught.  This is what he wrote:

    Pius XII, Sacramentum Ordinis: “Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects – namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit – and which are accepted and used by the Church in that sense.”

    The reason the words univocally signify the sacramental effect is because they “are accepted and used by the Church in that sense,” regardless of how many definitions Fr. Cekada can “unearth” for the same word or phrase.

    And the phrase “spiritus principalis” has been used by the Church to refer to the office of bishops since the earliest centuries, and probably during the time of the apostles.  Do a google search of “spiritual principalis” and “ordination” or “consecration” and you will find that the form used for episcopal consecration in the most ancient rites uses the phrase spiritus principalis.  In fact, the entire form in these ancient rites is virtually identical to the "new" form used by Paul VI.  There is no doubt whatsoever that the form used in the new rite is valid.  It is more ancient and less ambiguous than the old form.  

    Hello RT-

    Looks like your argument is that of Br. Ansgar, OSB (a modernist), which was refuted by Fr. Cekada beginning on p.4 of this article:

    Begin reading at this point, and see if you still maintain your/Br. Ansgar’s argument:

    “Br. Ansgar sets out to demonstrate that the essential sacramental forms prescribed in Sacramentum Ordinis by Pius XII — yes, Pius XII — were ambiguous and thus invalid by the standard I applied to the Paul VI form.”

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #38 on: February 20, 2019, 12:36:49 PM »
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  • Hello RT-

    Looks like your argument is that of Br. Ansgar, OSB (a modernist), which was refuted by Fr. Cekada beginning on p.4 of this article:

    Begin reading at this point, and see if you still maintain your/Br. Ansgar’s argument:

    “Br. Ansgar sets out to demonstrate that the essential sacramental forms prescribed in Sacramentum Ordinis by Pius XII — yes, Pius XII — were ambiguous and thus invalid by the standard I applied to the Paul VI form.”

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NuEpConObjex.pdf

    Let's hope Fr. Cekada comes on to defend his position.  

    And for the record, I didn't get my arguments from Br. Ansgar, but I did just read page four of the link you provided.   Thanks for alerting me to it, because without realizing it Fr. Cekada indirectly refutes his entire thesis.  I'll explain how later.  For now, I would suggesting saving the docuмent as a pdf, just in case it mysteriously disappear from the internet or secretly gets "revised."
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #39 on: February 20, 2019, 12:57:57 PM »
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  • Let's hope Fr. Cekada comes on to defend his position.  

    And for the record, I didn't get my arguments from Br. Ansgar, but I did just read page four of the link you provided.   Thanks for alerting me to it, because without realizing it Fr. Cekada indirectly refutes his entire thesis.  I'll explain how later.  For now, I would suggesting saving the docuмent as a pdf, just in case it mysteriously disappear from the internet or secretly gets "revised."

    RT-

    May I ask what your level of theological training is?

    Your pseudonym seems to suggest you are a “Roman Theo(logian)”

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #40 on: February 20, 2019, 04:21:56 PM »
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  • Why should Fr Cekada have to defend his position to anyone here?  He has written more fully about this matter and his writings and rebuttals are easily accessible online.  RomanTheo just needs to actually read them and get his SSPX/Novus Ordo head out of the sand.


    When the sedes and RR camps are in agreement, the argument becomes rather compelling.


    Even X and I agree!  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #41 on: February 20, 2019, 05:33:45 PM »
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  • The following is my reply Fr. Cekada's rebuttal to Br. Ansgar, as found on pages 4 and 5 of the link that "X" provided.

    Fr. Cekada: “Pius XII’s “Ambiguous” Formulas: Br. Ansgar sets out to demonstrate that the essential sacramental forms prescribed in Sacramentum Ordinis by Pius XII — yes, Pius XII — were ambiguous and thus invalid by the standard I applied to the Paul VI form.”

    Comment: Here is the argument as presented by Br. Ansgar that he's referring to:

    Br. Ansgar: “But that is not all: the traditional Latin formulas for the diaconate and episcopate taken together also fall short of Fr. Cekada’s required degree of univocity in a sacramental formula : the deacon is said to receive the Holy Spirit for “the work of the ministry” while the bishop receives the “fullness (summa ) . . . of your ministry”. Even though a bishop receives the plenitude of the sanctifying power of the priesthood, the formula itself does not say “priesthood”, but rather “ministry”, a generic term also used for the non-sanctifying (non-priestly) power of order a deacon receives. According to his own principles, how does Fr. Cekada know that the formula “plenitude of the ministry” univocally signifies a bishop and not an archdeacon, since diaconate is also, and even etymologically (diakonos—minister), ministry?

    Comment: Before reading Fr. Cekada’s reply, be sure to notice what Br. Ansgar is asking.  He wants to know how Fr. Cekada can be sure he the phrase “plenitude of the ministry” univocally signifies a bishop..  See if you can spot the sleight of hand Fr. Cekada uses:

    Fr. Cekada: “Diaconate. The word “ministry,” Br. Ansgar argues, is used in the Pius XII forms for both diaconate and episcopacy. How, Br. Ansgar asks, does Fr. Cekada know that the formula for episcopal consecration 'makes a bishop and not an archdeacon'? Well, Fr. Cekada knows it because Rev. Francis Hürth SJ, one of the theologians who wrote Sacramentum Ordinis for Pius XII, explained exactly what the word “ministry” meant in the form for diaconal ordination: “No one can doubt that the word ‘ministry’ in this sentence is used in the full and technical sense corresponding to the Greek term diaconia (‘diaconii’), from which this whole Order derives its name ‘diaconate’.”

    Comment: Notice what he just did.  He answered by quoting an authority who explained what “ministry” meant in formula of ordination of a deacon. But that’s not what Br. Ansgar asked.  He asked how Fr. Cekada knew that “the formula “plenitude of the ministry” univocally signifies a bishop.”  Fr. Cekada avoided answering that altogether and therefore the question still stands.  How does ministry univocally signify the office of bishop, when it is also used to refer to the deaconate?

    He dodges a similar question again on page 5. This time by quoting the same authority, and then misrepresent what the quote said by claiming the authority "explained" what he did not explain:

    Fr. Cekada: “Episcopacy. And finally, applying the same method to the form that Pius XII prescribed for episcopal consecration, Br. Ansgar claims: ‘But still, ‘”fullness of your ministry” does not in itself indicate that this ministerial fullness is specifically different from the non-priestly ministry the ordained had once received when he was ordained a deacon.’29

    “And Fr. Hürth provides an explanation of these terms from the theologians who proposed as the essential form the passage that Pius XII finally adopted: 'The words which fully suffice for the power and the grace to be signified are found in the consecratory Preface, whose essential words are those in which the ‘fullness or totality’ of the sacerdotal ministry and the ‘raiment of all glory’ are expressed.'30

    “So unless you follow the tenets of the weird modern theory in which an author has no 'privileged' insights into what his own writings mean, Fr. Hürth’s explanations of how and why the terms in the Pius XII forms are univocal [where did he explain that?] will suffice to defeat Br. Ansgar..."

    Comment: Fr. Hurth did not answer Brother Ansgar’s questions by “explain[ing] how and why the terms in the Pius XI forma are univocal.”  All he said is that they ‘fully suffice”, but without explaining how or why. But there’s something far more important to point out about Fr. Cekada’s reply.

    Before seeing how Fr. Cekada has just refuted his own thesis, remember that this entire argument comes down to the meaning of Spiritus principalis and specifically whether it suffices to signify the sacramental effect – namely, the office of Bishop.  Also remember that the reason Fr. Cekada claims it does not is because he discovered that “principalis” (like all other words), has more than one meaning, and then jumped to the conclusion that because of that it is ambiguous, and consequently cannot univocally signify the office of Bishop. But now comes the interesting part.

    What did Fr. Cekada do when the same argument was put to him – i.e., that ministry has multiple meanings, and therefore does not univocally signify the sacramental effect?  Did he turn to a dictionary (like he did with “principalem”) in an attempt to show that the word really only has one meaning (univocal)?  No.  That wouldn’t have worked.  Instead, he turned to an authority who explained what the word ‘ministry’ was intended mean in that particular sentence  (even though the explanation pertained to the form of ordination for a deacon, not a bishop).

    The reason this is important is because it demonstrates that Fr. Cekada himself realizes that it doesn’t matter if a word has multiple meanings.  What matters is the sense in which the word or phrase is “accepted and used by the Church” (as Pius XII)   Therefore, all we need to do to demonstrate what the Church means by Spiritus Principalis is quote an authority who was involved in preparing the new rite.

    For this, let us turn to the explanation for Spiritus Principalis given by Dom Botte, who was on the commission that prepared the New Rite – just as Fr. Cekada’s expert (Fr. Hurth) was involved in writing Sacramentum Ordinis - to find out what the term “Spiritus principalis” means.  Remember, according to Fr. Cekada’s own reasoning and method, this should definitively settle the matter.  And how much more so if the expert explains the meaning of the phrase in the correct context - Bishopric, not diaconate - and really does explain why it does suffice for validity, rather than simply saying so. Here is the explanation of Spiritus principalis given by Botte: 


    “The real question is this: among all the epithets that might have been suitable, why was principalis chosen? At this point it is necessary to broaden the investigation. The three orders [i.e., bishops, priests, and deacons] have a gift of the Holy Ghost, but it is not the same for each. For the bishop, it is the Spiritus principalis; for the priest, who forms the bishop’s council, it is the Spiritus consilii; and for the deacon, it is the Spiritus zeli et sollicitudinis. It is clear that these distinctions are made according to the functions of each minister. Thus it is clear that principalis must be correlated with the specific functions of the bishop (…) It can be concluded that the formula is certainly valid, for it has been utilized from time immemorial in numerous Eastern Rites; it means the gift of the Holy Ghost that creates the bishop." (Dom Bernard Botte, “Spiritus Principalis (formule de l’ordination episcopale),” Notitiae, 10 (1974), 410-11.)

    There you have it.  The testimony of an expert who was on the commission that prepared the new rite who explains what Spiritus principalis means - how it is accepted and used by the Church -  and states that “it is certainly valid.”

    By using Fr. Cekada’s own method for determining how an ambiguous word is to be understood when used in the context of the formula for ordination or consecration, we have just proven that his entire thesis against the validity of the new rite is “absolutely null and utterly void.”

    Next we will look at the arguments of Rama Coomerswami, which may actually be worse than those of Fr. Cekada.
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #42 on: February 20, 2019, 06:06:02 PM »
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  • RT-

    May I ask what your level of theological training is?

    Your pseudonym seems to suggest you are a “Roman Theo(logian)”

    ?

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #43 on: February 20, 2019, 09:11:32 PM »
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  • RT, you have repeated several times the idea that the same analysis of the new form when applied to the old form would show the old form to also be equivocal.  That's not true.  The old form is the received rite.  Not only the meaning but the very words themselves are of Apostolic origin.  Therefore it is the authority of Our Lord and God who guarantees the univocal meaning and validity of the form.  The new form is a man-made form conceived in the warped mind of the modernist Dom Botte.  It is based on faulty research.  And arguably it is intentionally equivocal because they had the same goal as the Anglican reformers:

    Quote
    It is true that the traditional names of the three orders occur in places, but, as explained at the head of this article, these names at the Reformation were often used in a sense from which all notion of the priesthood and its mystical powers had been drained off. That this was the sense in which they were intended by those who framed and authorized the Edwardine rites is proved by the statements of classical Anglican writers like Hooker, who defend the retention of the old names on the plea that "as for the people, when they hear the name [priest] it draweth no more their minds to any cogitation of sacrifice than the name of a senator or of an alderman causeth them to think upon old age, or to imagine that every one so termed must needs be ancient because years were respected in the nomination of both" (Eccles. Polity, V, lxxviii, 2). There is, moreover, the broad fact that, when the old and the new rite are compared, it appears that the difference lies just in this: that the framers of the new have cut out all that in the old gave expression to the idea of a mystic sacerdotium in the Catholic sense of the term. There is also the connected fact that the introduction of the Edwardine Ordinal was the outcome of the same general movement which led to the pulling down of the altars and the substitution of communion tables, in order that, as Ridley expressed it, "the form of a table shall more move the simple people from the superstitious opinions of the Popish mass unto the right use of the Lord's supper". - http://newadvent.com/cathen/01491a.htm "Anglican Orders"
    So, no, Fr Cekada does not have to apply the same analysis to the traditional rite.  It is guaranteed to be valid.

    Quote
    In the beginning of Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII, reiterating the teaching of the Council of Trent, states: "the Church has no power over 'the substance of the Sacraments,' that is, over those things which, as is proved from the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord Himself established to be kept as sacramental signs." - http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpConsArtPDF2.pdf, p. 12.
    Which is why putting your faith in Dom (the modernist) Botte's hands (or warped mind) is never a good idea.  Even if you are sure that Paul VI was a true pope, he has no authority to vandalize the forms of the sacraments.


    Quote
    The reason this is important is because it demonstrates that Fr. Cekada himself realizes that it doesn’t matter if a word has multiple meanings.  What matters is the sense in which the word or phrase is “accepted and used by the Church” (as Pius XII)   Therefore, all we need to do to demonstrate what the Church means by Spiritus Principalis is quote an authority who was involved in preparing the new rite.
    So if the Novus Ordo Church accepts and uses the baptismal form, "I baptise you in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier", then it is a valid form?
    Why are all your authorities modernists?  Dom Botte, Br Ansgar, Paul VI.  And you have no respect for pre-Vatican 2 authorities.  Hmmm.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #44 on: February 21, 2019, 04:55:20 AM »
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  • ?
    Hmm....I suspect a "priest" ordained by a Novus Ordo "bishop".
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)