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Author Topic: Question about New Rite of NO  (Read 8023 times)

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Offline RomanTheo

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Re: Question about New Rite of NO
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2019, 03:38:02 PM »
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  • Saying that the Novus Ordo rites are doubtful is an understatement.  If the only change was the dropping of the “ut” we could say the rite was doubtful because it failed to meet the minimum requirements for validity set forth by Pope Pius XII in the 1940s.  But the changes were much more extensive and substantial than that.  Pope Leo found that the Anglican rites were “absolutely null and utterly void” (doubtlessly invalid).  Arguably the Novus Ordo is more egregiously deformed than the Anglican rites.  Read Fr Cekada’s response to Fr Pierre-Marie.  In fact when I read Fr Pierre-Marie’s article before reading Fr Cekada’s I was already convinced that it was invalid.  The first half of Fr Pierre-Marie’s article paints a horrifying picture of the Novus Ordo rite that nothing written in the second half was able to convince me it was valid.
    Can you explain, in your own words, why you believe the new rite of episcopal consecration is invalid?  
    Never trust; always verify.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #16 on: February 19, 2019, 05:27:19 PM »
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  • Can you explain, in your own words, why you believe the new rite of episcopal consecration is invalid?  

    Or if there is anyone else, such as Judith 15 Ten, who can explain in their own words why they believe new rite is invalid, I would be interested in hearing it.  

    The reason I'm asking is because everyone I know of who doubts the validity of the new rite does so because others doubt it, and not for doctrinal reasons.   And those I know who don't merely doubt, but positively affirm that the new rite is invalid, likewise don't do so for solid doctrinal reasons, but because the doubts of others have so persuaded them that they eventually because certain it is invalid.
    Never trust; always verify.


    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #17 on: February 19, 2019, 05:49:10 PM »
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  • Or if there is anyone else, such as Judith 15 Ten, who can explain in their own words why they believe new rite is invalid, I would be interested in hearing it.  

    The reason I'm asking is because everyone I know of who doubts the validity of the new rite does so because others doubt it, and not for doctrinal reasons.   And those I know who don't merely doubt, but positively affirm that the new rite is invalid, likewise don't do so for solid doctrinal reasons, but because the doubts of others have so persuaded them that they eventually because certain it is invalid.

    The explanation is because “faith comes by hearing.”

    Very few are illumined by infused knowledge.

    And in such difficult matters, only a very rash person would concoct his own theology.

    The whole raisin d’etre of authority is to serve and protect truth, so why should a Catholic be shamed for embracing the guidance of well formed authorities?

    As for myself, I make Bishop Tissier’s doubts my own.  Whether I quote his words, or reformulate them in my own makes no difference:

    He doubts, and I find his reasons for doubting persuasive.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #18 on: February 19, 2019, 06:29:43 PM »
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  • The explanation is because “faith comes by hearing.”


    But we're not talking about an act of faith (believing a truth), but refusal to believe something due to doubts of others.  

    X: Very few are illumined by infused knowledge.  And in such difficult matters, only a very rash person would concoct his own theology.

    Reply: I am not suggesting that anyone concoct his own theology.  Why would anyone do that when we have the Church's sacramental theology to guide us? The reason for studying the Church's theology is precisely because we don't have infuse knowledge.

    X: The whole raisin d’etre of authority is to serve and protect truth, so why should a Catholic be shamed for embracing the guidance of well formed authorities?  As for myself, I make Bishop Tissier’s doubts my own.  Whether I quote his words, or reformulate them in my own makes no difference:  He doubts, and I find his reasons for doubting persuasive.

    Reply: But doubting because he doubts is not an act of submission to authority.   Has he commanded you to doubt?  I "doubt" it.  If he did command you to doubt was it a legitimate act of authority, and does he even have any legitimate claims of authority over you?
    Your position is not that of submission to authority, but of doubting because someone else doubts.  That's the same reason almost everyone else I have spoken about this with has given for doubting, or positively denying, the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration.  
     
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #19 on: February 19, 2019, 06:43:45 PM »
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  • But we're not talking about an act of faith (believing a truth), but refusal to believe something due to doubts of others.  

    X: Very few are illumined by infused knowledge.  And in such difficult matters, only a very rash person would concoct his own theology.

    Reply: I am not suggesting that anyone concoct his own theology.  Why would anyone do that when we have the Church's sacramental theology to guide us? The reason for studying the Church's theology is precisely because we don't have infuse knowledge.

    X: The whole raisin d’etre of authority is to serve and protect truth, so why should a Catholic be shamed for embracing the guidance of well formed authorities?  As for myself, I make Bishop Tissier’s doubts my own.  Whether I quote his words, or reformulate them in my own makes no difference:  He doubts, and I find his reasons for doubting persuasive.

    Reply: But doubting because he doubts is not an act of submission to authority.   Has he commanded you to doubt?  I "doubt" it.  If he did command you to doubt was it a legitimate act of authority, and does he even have any legitimate claims of authority over you?
    Your position is not that of submission to authority, but of doubting because someone else doubts.  That's the same reason almost everyone else I have spoken about this with has given for doubting, or positively denying, the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration.  
     

    Hello RT-

    I’m not really understanding what you are trying to say, I guess.

    If St. Thomas has a certain doctrinal position, or St. Jerome a biblical interpretation, or St. Alphonsus a moral opinion, then I am usually going to go with that opinion, based on their authority in those domains (not because they have some kind of personal jurisdiction over me).

    Same with the present issue:

    Rather than trust in self, I trust in those who are more studied in the matter.
    Are you saying I should not do that?  Or that the authorities I should place such trust in are the conciliarists who have proven themselves untrustworthy?

    Not trying to argue with you.  Just trying to understand your position.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #20 on: February 19, 2019, 07:05:29 PM »
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  • RomanTheo, the first half of Fr Pierre-Marie’s article shows how the NO episcopal consecration doesn’t meet the minimum requirements for validity as specified by Pope Pius XII in the 1940s.  It also shows how Dom Botte’s research was faulty and the rite is based on an ancient episcopal installation ceremony.  He also deals with the specific problems of the new form as if maybe despite not meeting minimum requirements it might still be valid but it becomes abundantly clear that the meaning of the new form is not the same as the old.  If you know anything about sacramental theology you know that a change in meaning of the form invalidates the sacrament.  So if using the Creator in place of the Father invalidates the form then what can we say about the significance of the changes in the episcopal consecration form?  It’s beyond the pale.

    In the second half of the article he goes on to argue that the rest of the ceremony gives a context to the form which gives it the required meaning for validity.  Fr Cekada’s response proves from pre V2 sources that context can never give validity to a defective form.  Context could invalidate a good form but it cannot validate a defective form.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #21 on: February 19, 2019, 07:29:09 PM »
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  • Or if there is anyone else, such as Judith 15 Ten, who can explain in their own words why they believe new rite is invalid, I would be interested in hearing it.  

    The reason I'm asking is because everyone I know of who doubts the validity of the new rite does so because others doubt it, and not for doctrinal reasons.   And those I know who don't merely doubt, but positively affirm that the new rite is invalid, likewise don't do so for solid doctrinal reasons, but because the doubts of others have so persuaded them that they eventually because certain it is invalid.
    I think you are saying that most folks doubt it merely because others doubt it.  If you mean that most people don't read up on clerical studies and come to an informed decision on their own, you are probably correct.

    In my case, I read Fr Pierre's and Father Cekada' s studies and decided against the New Rite of Consecration (the New Rite of Ordination is less of a concern).

    The fact that the SSPX changed its tune at the exact same time Benedict was elected made me very suspicious of their motivation in declaring the New Rite certainly valid.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #22 on: February 19, 2019, 08:10:14 PM »
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  • RomanTheo, the first half of Fr Pierre-Marie’s article shows how the NO episcopal consecration doesn’t meet the minimum requirements for validity as specified by Pope Pius XII in the 1940s.  It also shows how Dom Botte’s research was faulty and the rite is based on an ancient episcopal installation ceremony.  He also deals with the specific problems of the new form as if maybe despite not meeting minimum requirements it might still be valid but it becomes abundantly clear that the meaning of the new form is not the same as the old.  If you know anything about sacramental theology you know that a change in meaning of the form invalidates the sacrament.  So if using the Creator in place of the Father invalidates the form then what can we say about the significance of the changes in the episcopal consecration form?  It’s beyond the pale.

    It looks like you are reading the objections as if they are Fr. Pierre-Marie's own arguments.  Those objections do not reflect his position.  They are the objections of others that he refutes later in the article.  

    His article is structured like the Summa. He proposes objections, then answers the question, and then lastly replies to the objections.

    Fr. Pierre-Marie does not believe the new form is invalid, or even doubtful.  On the contrary, he said: "It can be concluded that the formula is certainly valid, for it has been utilized from time immemorial in numerous Eastern Rites; it means the gift of the Holy Ghost that creates the bishop."

    Here's a link his replies to the objections you mentioned.  http://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations-5



    Never trust; always verify.


    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #23 on: February 19, 2019, 08:19:51 PM »
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  • It looks like you are reading the objections as if they are Fr. Pierre-Marie's own arguments.  Those objections do not reflect his position.  They are the objections of others that he refutes later in the article.  

    His article is structured like the Summa. He proposes objections, then answers the question, and then lastly replies to the objections.

    Fr. Pierre-Marie does not believe the new form is invalid, or even doubtful.  On the contrary, he said: "It can be concluded that the formula is certainly valid, for it has been utilized from time immemorial in numerous Eastern Rites; it means the gift of the Holy Ghost that creates the bishop."

    Here's a link his replies to the objections you mentioned.  http://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations-5

    Bishop Tissier de Mallerais (giving his main reason for doubting the validity of the NREC):

    “The [phrase] “spiritum principalem” in the form introduced by Paul VI is not sufficiently clear in itself and the accessory rites do not specify its meaning in a Catholic sense.”

    Hence his conclusion:

    “I concluded there was a doubt about the validity of Episcopal Consecration conferred according to the rite of Paul VI.”

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #24 on: February 19, 2019, 08:27:20 PM »
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  • It looks like you are reading the objections as if they are Fr. Pierre-Marie's own arguments.  Those objections do not reflect his position.  They are the objections of others that he refutes later in the article.  

    His article is structured like the Summa. He proposes objections, then answers the question, and then lastly replies to the objections.

    Fr. Pierre-Marie does not believe the new form is invalid, or even doubtful.  On the contrary, he said: "It can be concluded that the formula is certainly valid, for it has been utilized from time immemorial in numerous Eastern Rites; it means the gift of the Holy Ghost that creates the bishop."

    Here's a link his replies to the objections you mentioned.  http://sspx.org/en/validity-new-rite-episcopal-consecrations-5
    He begins by stating the facts.  He never refutes the facts.  He admits them.  The form does not meet the minimum requirements set forth by Pius XII.  The form is based on an episcopal installation ceremony that Dom Botte erroneously thought was a consecration ceremony.  The rite is not the same as the eastern rites.  He refutes none of that because those are facts that he admits are true.

    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #25 on: February 19, 2019, 08:39:13 PM »
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  • Fr. Cekada vs Fr. Celier (SSPX):

    1st round knockout by Fr. Cekada.

    Note also that Fr Celier is the same SSPX priest who was a member of GREC, and who wrote an accordist book (Benedict XVI and the Traditionalists) with the Foreword written by a public Freemason, and avowed hater of Archbishop Lefebvre).

    Fr. Celier has placed his own reputation under a cloud of suspicion, and such a man defending (however ineptly) the validity of the new Rite is rather a strong mark AGAINST concluding likewise.

    Take it away, Fr. Cekada:

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/NewEpCelierWeb.pdf

    Note that Fr Cekada and Bishop Tissier de Mallerais share the same objection/concern, with only the extent of their conclusion differing.


    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #26 on: February 19, 2019, 08:59:12 PM »
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  • Hello RT-

    I’m not really understanding what you are trying to say, I guess.

    If St. Thomas has a certain doctrinal position, or St. Jerome a biblical interpretation, or St. Alphonsus a moral opinion, then I am usually going to go with that opinion, based on their authority in those domains (not because they have some kind of personal jurisdiction over me).

    Same with the present issue:

    Rather than trust in self, I trust in those who are more studied in the matter.
    Are you saying I should not do that?  Or that the authorities I should place such trust in are the conciliarists who have proven themselves untrustworthy?
    Ah, okay I see what you mean by submitting to his authority.  

    Do I think you should doubt simply because he has doubts?  No, not without doing your own homework.  

    There are a lot of trustworthy and intelligent people who have not had any doubts about the validity of the new rite, such as Cardinal Ottaviani, so it strikes me as imprudent to doubt simply because someone you consider trustworthy and intelligent doubts.   

    What I think you should do is find out what issues cause him to doubt, and then thoroughly investigate those matters yourself.  Then, after doing so, you might doubt for the same reasons he doubts, but not simply because he doubts.
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #27 on: February 19, 2019, 09:04:02 PM »
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  • He begins by stating the facts.  He never refutes the facts.  He admits them.  The form does not meet the minimum requirements set forth by Pius XII.  The form is based on an episcopal installation ceremony that Dom Botte erroneously thought was a consecration ceremony.  The rite is not the same as the eastern rites.  He refutes none of that because those are facts that he admits are true.
    Have you ever read an article in the Summa?  That's how Fr. Pierre-Marie's article is structures. He doesn't begin with "facts".  He begins with objections that he later refutes.
     
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #28 on: February 19, 2019, 09:33:52 PM »
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  • “The [phrase] “spiritum principalem” in the form introduced by Paul VI is not sufficiently clear in itself and the accessory rites do not specify its meaning in a Catholic sense.”

    That's it.  That the argument against the new rite, or at least the argument that causes people to doubt the validity. 

    What I would suggest is that you research that point.  Don't set out to defend what Bishop Tissier said, but look into it yourself with an open mind and see what you find. 

    What you will be trying to determine is if the phrase "spiritul principalem" signifies the sacramental effect, by referring to the office of bishop.   All that is required for a valid form is that 1) the Holy Ghost is called upon to 2) raise the person to the office of Bishop.  The Holy Ghost is clearly mentioned in the new form. The argument is that the phrase spiritual principalem does not sufficiently indicate the office of Bishop.

    If you look into that argument yourself I bet you come away with no doubts about the validity of the new rite, but only if you look into it honestly with an open mind.  I would start with Fr. Pierre-Marie's article and see what he has to say about the phrase.  

    Also keep in mind that words mean what the Church understands them to mean.  If a heretical sect uses a theological or doctrine term that the Catholic Church uses, but understanding of the term differently, their meaning of the word of phraase doesn't have any effect whatsoever on what the Church means when it uses the same word or phrase.  This fact will help you see through one of Fr. Cekada's nonsensical arguments, which is the same nonsensical argument used by Rama Coomerswami. 
    Never trust; always verify.

    Offline X

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    Re: Question about New Rite of NO
    « Reply #29 on: February 19, 2019, 09:34:00 PM »
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  • Ah, okay I see what you mean by submitting to his authority.  

    Do I think you should doubt simply because he has doubts?  No, not without doing your own homework.  

    There are a lot of trustworthy and intelligent people who have not had any doubts about the validity of the new rite, such as Cardinal Ottaviani, so it strikes me as imprudent to doubt simply because someone you consider trustworthy and intelligent doubts.  

    What I think you should do is find out what issues cause him to doubt, and then thoroughly investigate those matters yourself.  Then, after doing so, you might doubt for the same reasons he doubts, but not simply because he doubts.
    Hi RT-
    I have given His Excellency’s REASONS twice in this thread.
    I’m confident you are aware of that.