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Author Topic: Question about church teaching on slavery  (Read 2559 times)

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Offline PG

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Question about church teaching on slavery
« on: August 19, 2015, 05:18:31 PM »
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  • Does the church teach that a master can kill his slave?  I am reading st. louis de montfort, and he says in section 71 that "the master of a slave has by law the right of life and death over him, so that he can sell him to anyone he chooses, or if you will pardon the comparison, kill him as he would kill his horse."  

    Where has the church taught this either explicitly or implicitly?  I would like to know.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Matto

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #1 on: August 19, 2015, 05:24:13 PM »
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  • This is the first time that I heard someone from the Church say that a master can kill his slaves. I thought that the Church taught that slavery was acceptable as long as the master treats his slaves well.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline PG

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #2 on: August 19, 2015, 05:29:44 PM »
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  • I forgot to mention, this is section 71 from true devotion to the blessed virgin by montfort publications.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Nadir

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #3 on: August 19, 2015, 11:10:27 PM »
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  • Saying:
    Quote
    "the master of a slave has by law the right of life and death over him, so that he can sell him to anyone he chooses, or if you will pardon the comparison, kill him as he would kill his horse."
    is not necessarily saying that he approves. Rather he stating what the law says.

    It would have to be seen in context. Can you quote him approving of it?
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline poche

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #4 on: August 19, 2015, 11:37:46 PM »
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  • "Thou shalt not kill." - God


    Offline Nadir

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #5 on: August 20, 2015, 01:45:09 AM »
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  • Here's the context:

    Quote
    70. Now there are three kinds of slavery; natural slavery, enforced slavery, and voluntary slavery. All creatures are slaves of God in the first sense, for "the earth and its fullness belong to the Lord". The devils and the damned are slaves in the second sense. The saints in heaven and the just on earth are slaves in the third sense. Voluntary slavery is the most perfect of all three states, for by it we give the greatest glory to God, who looks into the heart and wants it to be given to him. Is he not indeed called the God of the heart or of the loving will? For by this slavery we freely choose God and his service before all things, even if we were not by our very nature obliged to do so.

    71. There is a world of difference between a servant and a slave.  

    1) A servant does not give his employer all he is, all he has, and all he can acquire by himself or through others.
    A slave, however, gives himself to his master completely and exclusively with all he has and all he can acquire.

    2) A servant demands wages for the services rendered to his employer.
    A slave, on the other hand, can expect nothing, no matter what skill, attention or energy he may have put into his work.

    3) A servant can leave his employer whenever he pleases, or at least when the term of his service expires, whereas the slave has no such right.

    4) An employer has no right of life and death over a servant. Were he to kill him as he would a beast of burden, he would commit murder. But the master of a slave has by law the right of life and death over him, so that he can sell him to anyone he chooses or - if you will pardon the comparison - kill him as he would kill his horse.

    5) Finally, a servant is in his employer's service only for a time; a slave for always.
    72. No other human state involves belonging   more completely to another than slavery. Among Christian peoples, nothing makes a person belong more completely to Jesus and his holy Mother than voluntary slavery. Our Lord himself gave us the example of this when out of love for us he "took the form of a slave". Our Lady gave us the same example when she called herself the handmaid or slave of the Lord. The Apostle considered it an honour to be called "slave of Christ". Several times in Holy Scripture, Christians are referred to as "slaves of Christ".

    The Latin word "servus" at one time signified only a slave because servants as we know them did not exist. Masters were served either by slaves or by freedmen. The Catechism of the Council of Trent leaves no doubt about our being slaves of Jesus Christ, using the unequivocal term "Mancipia Christi", which plainly means: slaves of Christ.
    https://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM#Part I: Ch. 1



    St Louis is clearly using the example of slavery to show how we should submit ourselves as saints to God's demands and designs on us.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline clare

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #6 on: August 20, 2015, 05:09:32 AM »
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  • In Plurimis, Leo XIII

    Quote
    3. In the presence of so much suffering, the condition of slavery, in which a considerable part of the great human family has been sunk in squalor and affliction now for many centuries, is deeply to be deplored; for the system is one which is wholly opposed to that which was originally ordained by God and by nature. The Supreme Author of all things so decreed that man should exercise a sort of royal dominion over beasts and cattle and fish and fowl, but never that men should exercise a like dominion over their fellow men. As St. Augustine puts it: "Having created man a reasonable being, and after His own likeness, God wished that he should rule only over the brute creation; that he should be the master, not of men, but of beasts." From this it follows that "the state of slavery is rightly regarded as a penalty upon the sinner; thus, the word slave does not occur in the Bible until the just man Noe branded with it the sin of his son. It was sin, therefore, which deserved this name; it was not natural."(4)

    4. From the first sin came all evils, and specially this perversity that there were men who, forgetful of the original brotherhood of the race, instead of seeking, as they should naturally have done, to promote mutual kindness and mutual respect, following their evil desires began to think of other men as their inferiors, and to hold them as cattle born for the yoke. In this way, through an absolute forgetfulness of our common nature, and of human dignity, and the likeness of God stamped upon us all, it came to pass that in the contentions and wars which then broke out, those who were the stronger reduced the conquered into slavery; so that mankind, though of the same race, became divided into two sections, the conquered slaves and their victorious masters. The history of the ancient world presents us with this miserable spectacle down to the time of the coming of our Lord, when the calamity of slavery had fallen heavily upon all the peoples, and the number of freemen had become so reduced that the poet was able to put this atrocious phrase into the mouth of Caesar: "The human race exists for the sake of a few."(5)

    5. The system flourished even among the most civilized peoples, among the Greeks and among the Romans, with whom the few imposed their will upon the many; and this power was exercised so unjustly and with such haughtiness that a crowd of slaves was regarded merely as so many chattels-not as persons, but as things. They were held to be outside the sphere of law, and without even the claim to retain and enjoy life. "Slaves are in the power of their masters, and this power is derived from the law of nations; for we find that among all nations masters have the power of life and death over their slaves, and whatever a slave earns belongs to his master."(6) Owing to this state of moral confusion it became lawful for men to sell their slaves, to give them in exchange, to dispose of them by will, to beat them, to kill them, to abuse them by forcing them to serve for the gratification of evil passions and cruel superstitions; these things could be done, legally, with impunity, and in the light of heaven. Even those who were wisest in the pagan world, illustrious philosophers and learned jurisconsults, outraging the common feeling of mankind, succeeded in persuading themselves and others that slavery was simply a necessary condition of nature. Nor did they hesitate to assert that the slave class was very inferior to the freemen both in intelligence and perfection of bodily development, and therefore that slaves, as things wanting in reason and sense, ought in all things to be the instruments of the will, however rash and unworthy, of their masters. Such inhuman and wicked doctrines are to be specially detested; for, when once they are accepted, there is no form of oppression so wicked but that it will defend itself beneath some color of legality and justice. History is full of examples showing what a seedbed of crime, what a pest and calamity, this system has been for states. Hatreds are excited in the breasts of the slaves, and the masters are kept in a state of suspicion and perpetual dread; the slaves prepare to avenge themselves with the torches of the incendiary, and the masters continue the task of oppression with greater cruelty. States are disturbed alternately by the number of the slaves and by the violence of the masters, and so are easily overthrown; hence, in a word, come riots and ѕєdιтισns, pillage and fire.

    Offline PG

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #7 on: August 20, 2015, 05:21:07 PM »
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  • Nadir - Leo XIII regards it "as wicked and inhuman, and to be detested".  We even have in John 15:15 our Lord saying, and I summarize, "I no longer call you servants(slaves) but friends".  With that said, I do not believe it will all of a sudden become beneficial if/when applied to the spiritual.  In fact, it is likely the opposite occurs.  With the schuckardites and the feeneyites, it makes one wonder.

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline songbird

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #8 on: August 20, 2015, 06:19:21 PM »
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  • The cινιℓ ωαr, was because of the Catholic church.  A slave/servant person had the right to be a servant and the master was to to treat that servant like himself. A Person had the right to say if they desired to be in the position of a servant.

    Offline Nadir

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #9 on: August 20, 2015, 09:39:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: + PG +
    Nadir - Leo XIII regards it "as wicked and inhuman, and to be detested".  We even have in John 15:15 our Lord saying, and I summarize, "I no longer call you servants(slaves) but friends".  With that said, I do not believe it will all of a sudden become beneficial if/when applied to the spiritual.  In fact, it is likely the opposite occurs.  With the schuckardites and the feeneyites, it makes one wonder.



    What point are you making here? I am puzzled.

    John 15:15 says:
    Quote
    I will not now call you servants: for the servant knoweth not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you.


    Your questions:
    Quote
    1. Does the church teach that a master can kill his slave?

    2. Where has the church taught this either explicitly or implicitly?


    Answers:
    Quote
    1. No.
    2. Nowhere.


    It's that simple!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline PG

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #10 on: August 21, 2015, 12:12:42 PM »
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  • Nadir - I am not the one you have to explain this to, de montfort is the one who fails to grasp the simplicity.  He is the one using such a false and scandalous analogy.  That is what I am pointing out.  But, unfortunately, this appears to be a conflict of interest for you; rendering you no explicit help.

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline shin

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #11 on: August 21, 2015, 02:34:14 PM »
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  • That was a really rash statement +PG+ making a statement against the saint like that. You should have more care.



    Sincerely,

    Shin

    'Flores apparuerunt in terra nostra. . . Fulcite me floribus.' (The flowers appear on the earth. . . stay me up with flowers. Sg 2:12,5)'-

    Offline Nadir

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #12 on: August 21, 2015, 05:26:49 PM »
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  • I thought it was a genuine quest for knowledge but I misunderstood. Here is how you started out.

    Quote from: + PG +
    Does the church teach that a master can kill his slave?  I am reading st. louis de montfort, and he says in section 71 that "the master of a slave has by law the right of life and death over him, so that he can sell him to anyone he chooses, or if you will pardon the comparison, kill him as he would kill his horse."  

    Where has the church taught this either explicitly or implicitly?  I would like to know.


    Now you are saying:

    Quote
    Nadir - I am not the one you have to explain this to, de montfort is the one who fails to grasp the simplicity. He is the one using such a false and scandalous analogy. That is what I am pointing out. But, unfortunately, this appears to be a conflict of interest for you; rendering you no explicit help.


    I have no "conflict of interest". In fact I've never even read St Louis' writings. Maybe you should have said in the OP: "I'm here to show this de montford character up for being  a scandalous fraud."

    A saint is worthy of his full name and title, with capitalisations: He is Saint Louis Mary Grignion de Montford.

    It is good to ask questions but not to insult God's Saints.

    Here is a definition of blasphemy taken from the Concise Catholic Dictionary of 1943 (CCD): “any word or act insulting to God or to holy things. It is a sin against religion and may be aimed directly at God, or indirectly by contempt for His Church, His saints, or sacred persons or things.”
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline OHCA

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #13 on: August 21, 2015, 08:35:02 PM »
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  • I get the impression that this thread is about more than meets the eye.  Have I missed a thread with similar controversy that gives some background context for the argument?

    Offline PG

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    Question about church teaching on slavery
    « Reply #14 on: August 21, 2015, 09:35:21 PM »
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  • ohca - This is actually my first reading of this book, and my first reading of any of his works.  I started reading it on the feast of the assumption as a form of devotion.  And, that is the history.





    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15