Author Topic: Zacharias 11-12 (Read 1953 times)

Raoul76 · « **on:** November 12, 2011, 02:34:05 AM »

I haven't picked up a Bible in a long time, probably over a year. I'm becoming very lukewarm. I began my consecration to Mary knowing I needed a boost; part of that is reading through the Bible. Well, just now I was flipping around and came to Zacharias, which I've never read before, and right away it gave me the chills. Clearly this pertains to the Great Apostasy and Vatican II.

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"And I took my rod that was called Beauty: and I cut it aside to make void my covenant which I had made with all people"

Right here this is interesting since it says "all people," not just the Jews. Clearly this is a prefiguration!

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"And I said to them: If it be good in your eyes, bring hither my wages: and if not, be quiet. And they weighed for my wages thirty pieces of silver."

The betrayal of Judas is prefigured; as is the betrayal of the Catholics in the time of the Apostasy.

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"And the Lord said to me: Cast it to the statuary, a handsome price, that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver and I cast them into the house of the Lord, to the statuary.

And I cut off my second rod that was called a Cord, that I might break the brotherhood between Juda and Israel.

For "Juda," read the faithless Catholics; for "Israel" read the true Catholics. He is using VII to separate the wheat from the chaff, then He will use the wheat to restore the Church, however little wheat there is.

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And the Lord said to me: Take to thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd."

Getting the chills yet? The foolish shepherd is a false Pope, or as SSPX might think, a bad Pope.

The next passage is mind-blowing. This is blatantly about Vatican II. God was showing his future rage here, the rage that we will be extremely fortunate if we escape. These are some of the most tragic words in the Bible. God is talking about an anti-shepherd in the place of a shepherd, doing the opposite of what a shepherd should do; an anti-Christ, as it were.

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"For behold I will raise up a future shepherd in the land, who shall not visit what is forsaken nor seek what is scattered nor heal what is broken nor nourish that which standeth: and he shall eat the flesh of the fat ones and break their hoofs."

The fat ones are the worldly Catholics; the false shepherd will lure them in like a Pied Piper and break their feet; so that they can't walk i.e. spiritually develop.

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"O shepherd and idol, that forsaketh the flock: the sword upon his arm and upon his right eye. His arm shall quite wither away: and his right eye shall be utterly darkened."

I will leave others to argue if this passage indicates a true or false shepherd. Onto Chapter 12 --

Gregory I · « **Reply #1 on:** November 12, 2011, 02:43:27 AM »

You may have noticed this, but this book has several direct parallels to the book of Revelation, including the horsemen of the apocalypse, the seven lamp stands and the two olive trees.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 12, 2011, 02:56:03 AM »

Okay, this is getting complicated now. Chapter 12 makes me wonder if this is really about Vatican II. I need to sort through this more, sorry, how embarrassing, carry on. I can't erase the thread alas.

Chapter 11 and the first part of Chapter 12 seem so clearly to be about Vatican II. But then it kind of changes course and loses me.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 12, 2011, 03:19:29 AM »

Yes, this book clearly plays with time and telescopes time like the Apocalypse, zipping back and forth, mixing up past and future events.

I thought "Jerusalem" stood for the Catholic Church at first. But it might really pertain to the Jews and their conversion near the end of time.

Could it be about Vatican II giving power to Israel; and God protecting Israel not for the sake of the Jews of the present but of the future? The way this book speaks of Jerusalem is immensely puzzling. God seems to be both for and against Jerusalem, you can't tell if he prefers Juda or Jerusalem. But then what is Juda? I guess Juda is the Church, not the lukewarm Catholics as I said before.

This is interesting --

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"In that day shall the Lord protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and he that hath offended among them in that day shall be as David

So God protects Jerusalem; but not all of Jerusalem is pleasing to him, only those who have "offended." Could this mean the end-time Jews who have converted to Catholicism and irritated the other Jews?

There is a strange and cryptic interplay between Juda and Jerusalem.

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"And the Lord shall save the tabernacles of Juda, as in the beginning: that the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may not boast and magnify themselves against Juda."

God will preserve Israel; but He will also preserve the Church, and he will prevent the Jews of Israel from taking down or taking over the Church... Does that sound like a possible interpretation?

Yes, here we go: Chapter 12:10 --

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"And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of prayers: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced."

Okay, Jerusalem is clearly the Jews. So this is not just about Vatican II but about the conversion of the end-times Jews, I am almost sure of that now.
It goes on to describe an incredible REPENTANCE -- the Jews mourn over Jesus, whom they have pierced, as a parent grieves for a dead "firstborn." This appears to be a reconciliation of God with the Jews; who grieve for the sins of all past Jews and do major penance. He pours His grace on them, they finally see what they have done, He embraces them once again in a way that, it seems to me, surpasses or at least is different from the way he loves previous saints, since this is like a homecoming.

It looks to me like the converted and repentant Jews will produce the great end-times saints, and that they represent God's reconcilation with the chosen people, with everything coming full circle.

I think I am getting why some here say they defend Israel. Israel, in terms of the nation, needs to be around for the future, although in the present day it is a source of evil.

I feel like I'm on the verge of a revelation, somewhere vaguely on the right track but something hasn't fallen into place yet. That is fine, God is not obligated to reveal everything to me.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 12, 2011, 03:25:09 AM »

One thing doesn't work still:

If Juda is the Church; and Jerusalem is the Jews; then why would the house of David magnify itself against Juda, since the house of David are supposed to convert? If the house of David converts, they are part of Juda, they wouldn't attack it.

So there is a piece missing still, though this has to be about the end-time conversion of the Jews. It happens AFTER the death of Christ, and as we know, the Jews have not yet been reconciled to God in any great dramatic fashion like is portrayed here. Therefore these events of Chapter 12 must still be in the future.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 12, 2011, 03:31:42 AM »

Actually Jerusalem might be the Church after all...

I will leave these thread now, let's pretend it never happened, lol. I clearly needed more time to let this percolate. I got overexcited as usual when I began reading.

s2srea · « **Reply #6 on:** November 12, 2011, 08:05:18 AM »

Hey Mike-

Do you read Hadyock's Commentary? I pulled the link for the section in your first post.

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Ver. 10. All people. Hereupon all fell upon the Jews.

Ver. 11. Poor converted to Christ, (Calmet) who retired to Pella, (Eusebius, Church History iv. 5.) as they had been warned of the impending storm, Matthew xxiv. 1., and Luke xxi. 20.

Ver. 12. Pieces. Sicles are usually understood. About fifty-one livres. The Jews bought the life of Christ for this sum; (Calmet) thirty pieces. (Worthington)

Ver. 13. The statuary. The Hebrew word signifies also a potter, (Challoner) and this seems to be the true meaning, Matthew xxvii. 3. The prophet is ordered to bring, thus to indicate what should be done by the traitor. (Calmet) --- Septuagint, "cast them into the crucible to see if it (the metal) be good, as I have been tried by them." (Haydock)

Ver. 14. Israel. The latter remained obstinate, (Calmet) while Juda, the real "confessor," (Haydock) embraced the gospel. After the destruction of the temple, the Jєωιѕн ceremonies were no longer (Calmet) observed or tolerated in the Church, as they had been, in order that the ѕуηαgσgυє might be buried with honour. (St. Augustine) (Haydock) --- The Jews are rejected. (Worthington)

Ver. 15. A foolish shepherd. This was to represent the foolish, that is, the wicked princes and priests that should rule the people, before their utter destruction. (Challoner) --- Caligula, Claudius, or Nero, monsters of stupidity, may also be meant. To such the Jews preferred to submit: but they soon found out their mistake, when it was too late. Caligula and Nero would be adored in the temple!

Ver. 16. Hoofs, with excessive travelling. (Calmet) --- They shew no pity, but are wholly intent on their own pleasures. (Haydock)

s2srea · « **Reply #7 on:** November 12, 2011, 08:06:24 AM »

Here's the link to Haydock's commentary on Holy Scripture:

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/

I know it would feel better to have a actual Haydock bible, but the computer will do for now I suppose

Gregory I · « **Reply #8 on:** November 12, 2011, 09:59:16 AM »

If you are looking for parallels Raoul, read Maccabees andabout the four fals Jєωιѕн High Priests and the Profane Altar which is the abomination of desolation prophecied by Daniel and Referenced by our Lord, or do you know that one?