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Author Topic: Protocol 12249  (Read 1346 times)

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Offline Cathedra

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Protocol 12249
« on: July 09, 2013, 08:05:46 PM »
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  • Who here thinks that the Protocol was not a legitimate decree of the Holy Office or that it cannot be considered as representing the official teaching of the Church? If there is anyone who believes that of course.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Cathedra

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    Protocol 12249
    « Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 08:19:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    I'm sorry, what is it?  A google result brought up this: https://www.google.com/search?q=protocol+12249&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=protocol+12249&client=firefox-a&hs=g34&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&ei=L7TcUfraA4nxygHY8oHICA&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.aWc&fp=fec3aa09cf8c46bf&biw=1280&bih=665

    Nothing with the word Catholic for the first three pages.



    I don't know why but the dash (/) didn't come up on the thread title.

    It was meant to be "Protocol 122/49".

    It is the letter also known as Suprema Haec Sacra.

    Offline Iuvenalis

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    Protocol 12249
    « Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 11:14:19 PM »
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  • This really beats around the bush doesnt it.

    Offline Cathedra

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    Protocol 12249
    « Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 11:32:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Iuvenalis
    This really beats around the bush doesnt it.


    I just wanted to know if anyone happened to think that and why, that's all; I wasn't looking for any controversy


    Offline poche

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    Protocol 12249
    « Reply #5 on: July 10, 2013, 04:19:47 AM »
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  • Are you talking about this? http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/
    Of course thereis no salvation outside the Church.
     
    http://http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/

    Offline Cathedra

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    Protocol 12249
    « Reply #6 on: July 10, 2013, 07:13:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    Are you talking about this? http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/
    Of course thereis no salvation outside the Church.
     
    http://http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/


    That website looks interesting. I had never seen it before.

    Offline Jehanne

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    Protocol 12249
    « Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 07:51:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Who here thinks that the Protocol was not a legitimate decree of the Holy Office or that it cannot be considered as representing the official teaching of the Church? If there is anyone who believes that of course.


    It was never published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, however, it was referenced at Vatican II and is also referenced in the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, which make it authoritative Church teaching.  However, what does it say?  Consider these two paragraphs:

    Quote
    We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (<Denzinger>, n. 1792).

    Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.


    http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdffeeny.htm

    Well, which "infallible statement"?  The author does not say.  The "closet match" would be the one from the Council of Florence (which is also referenced in the new Catechism, paragraph #1034, DS 1351):

    Quote
    She ["the Holy Roman Church"] firmly believes, professes, and preaches that “none of those who are outside of the Catholic Church, not only pagans,” but also Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics, can become sharers of eternal life, but they will go into the eternal fire “that was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Mt 25:41] unless, before the end of their life, they are joined to her. And the unity of the Church’s body is of such great importance that the Church’s sacraments are beneficial toward salvation only for those who remain within her, and (only for them) do fasts, almsgiving, and other acts of piety and exercises of Christian discipline bring forth eternal rewards. “No one can be saved, no matter how many alms he has given, and even if he sheds his blood for the name of Christ, unless he remains in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”


    Or, the author could mean the declaration from the Fourth Lateran Council:

    Quote
    “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)


    Both are infallible, right, as they are both listed in the various editions of Denzingers, even the latest one.  However, what did the author mean by an infallible statement?  No doubt he meant this:

    Quote
    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council, Session 3, Chapter 4, #14, ex cathedra: "Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by Holy Mother Church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding."

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council, Session 3, Canon 4, ex cathedra: "If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the church which is different from that which the church has understood and understands: let him be anathema."


    Therefore, the declarations from Lateran IV and Florence must be understood in the same sense that the Catholic Church had when she made those infallible declarations.  That is what the Holy Office Letter, Protocol 122/49, is stating!  Who exactly, then is outside the Church?  Florence answers:

    Quote
    not only pagans,” but also Jєωs, heretics, and schismatics


    Was it possible for the Catholic Church to recognize such folks, at least to a moral certitude?  Certainly, for the Fourth Lateran Council also teaches:

    Quote
    Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church...


    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

    The Catholic Church can recognize a heretic when she sees one.  Therefore, there are individuals who are visibly outside the Church.