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Author Topic: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?  (Read 3989 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2019, 04:28:49 PM »
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  • The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not say that Muslims can be saved, it says 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/161.htm

    It is obvious from that statement that Muslims, Jews and other deniers of Christ's Divinity, even if they believe there is one God, cannot be saved; for believing in Jesus Christ is necessary to obtain that salvation that He obtained for us. The presentation of EENS, which occurs much later in the Catechism, is also entirely orthodox:

    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
    847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
    848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

    (1) It doesn't say those invincibly ignorant can be saved as they are. It says those invincibly ignorant will be led by God "to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him", i.e. to saving faith in Jesus Christ, by which they can obtain His salvation. It also says (1) The Church has the obligation and the sacred right to evangelize all men. And (2) all who are knowingly separated from the Church - which means, even those Christians to whom the necessity of the Church has been proposed, but who, by obstinate separation, have become formal heretics or schismatics - cannot be saved. These three teachings cover the basic doctrine of EENS as Tradition teaches it.

    If they (the current Conciliar Magisterium under Francis, and that under his Conciliar predecessors) really believe faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, why don't (didn't) they say it in no uncertain terms and when the opportunity offered (as it repeatedly and endlessly did - witness their constant ecuмenical activities)? Wait. It's worse than them simply not saying it: why do (did) they freely allow the opposite impression - that Muslims, Jews, and those who deny Christ's divinity can be saved in their religion - to thrive in those ecuмenical activities.

    And the various Sede and R & R churchmen are no better. They may avoid the activities, but they fill up the confusion with the same false words, words, words. I'd almost give an arm for either Sanborn, Dolan, Cekada, Fellay, Williamson, etc. to come out, look into the damn camera, and say, "one must have the Catholic faith to be saved, which, at a minimum, requires belief in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and the Incarnation of the Son as man to pay the price for our sin."  

    And if they believed that, their conduct in allowing the contrary impression to thrive is criminal, since it's basically smiling and shaking hands while countless millions go to hell before their eyes.

    I think it would be better for their eternal souls, Xavier, if they actually disagreed with you and denied the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation.

    Their repentance could start with excising the word "implicit" from their vocabularies on this subject, or at least redefining it responsibly.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #61 on: January 18, 2020, 02:36:40 AM »
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  • The sede sects are far worse in EENS, for many of them reject the plain sense of the Athanasian Creed. Implicit Baptism of Desire is Catholic Doctrine, it is taught even by His Holiness Pope St. Pius X in his Catechism. The idea of salvation by implicit faith in Christ is a different idea and an erroneous one. The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, favors explicit faith.

    Here's the state of the question on explicit and implicit faith in Christ, per 3 pre-Vatican II authorities, and the teaching of St. Alphonsus, who cites St. Thomas and others.

    Fr. Sylvester Hunter, in Outlines of Dogmatic Theology (1895) writes: "Regarding the points on which explicit knowledge is required as the indispensable means of justification, this certainly extends to the belief that God exists and that He shows Himself the Rewarder of them that seek Him.  This amount of belief is declared by St. Paul to be essential, if any one will please God. (Hebrews 11:6) ... So far there is universal agreement, and in fact the necessity that we have stated is not open to doubt, for Pope Innocent XI condemned the assertion that explicit belief that God rewards is not necessary (prop. 22; Denz. 1039).  There is a controversy whether St. Paul, in the passage quoted, intended to mention all that is necessary, or whether explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is required ... many followers of the Thomist school hold that it has been necessary since the revelation was brought by Christ ...  These found their opinion upon the language of Scripture, which frequently speaks of faith in Christ as the essential condition of salvation; and to believe in Christ means to believe that He is God and Man."

    Fr. Michael Mueller, CSSR, citing St. Alphonsus and other authorities: "Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles - the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons - is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.”

    Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, writing during the reign of Pope Ven. Pius XII: "most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation"

    In Theologia Moralis, Lib.III, Cap 1, Q. 2 St. Alphonsus wrote against implicit faith: "They [the proponents of salvation by implicit faith in Christ] respond that even though all the Scriptures and Holy Fathers’ testimonies oppose this opinion, their opinion [the "opinion" of the Scriptures, as confirmed by the exegesis of the unanimous "opinion" of the Fathers] is more easily explained by necessity of precept, or because ordinarily almost none are saved without explicit faith in the mysteries, because after the promulgation of the gospel almost no one labors out of invincible ignorance."

    St. Alphonsus also answers the most common objection to it, citing St. Thomas "What about those who are too difficult for God to reach?" - "Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor, God, at least remotely, gives to infidels [non-Christians], who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul" Thus, anyone who co-operates with God in observing natural law will, by degrees, come to the knowledge of Christ. God's Providence will not fail in this, whether it is sending an Angel, a Preacher, or Interior Illumination, say Sts. Thomas and Alphonsus

    If we take the Creed of St. Athanasius in its most plain sense, "Whoever wishes to be saved must above all hold the Catholic Faith ... the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship God in Trinity and Trinity in unity ... which faith except a man hold firmly and faithfully, without a doubt he will perish in eternity.. he therefore that will be saved, let him think thus on the Trinity. Further it is necessary for eternal salvation that he also believes in the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ", Tradition also favors explicit over implicit faith.

    Notice how beautifully the Magisterium teaches, "848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338. This means that those who are invincible ignorance, can be saved, but not as they are; they will be led by God, in a way known to Him, to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him, which in light of CCC 161, was earlier declared to be faith in Jesus Christ, for it said faith in Jesus Christ and the One Who sent Him for our Salvation is necessary for obtaining that Salvation.

    For the sede and other separated sects to return to the Catholic Church, full assent of mind and will to the Catechism is requisite.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #62 on: January 18, 2020, 05:01:14 AM »
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  • It is obvious from that statement that Muslims, Jews and other deniers of Christ's Divinity, even if they believe there is one God, cannot be saved; for believing in Jesus Christ is necessary to obtain that salvation that He obtained for us. The presentation of EENS, which occurs much later in the Catechism, is also entirely orthodox:

    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
    847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
    848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
    Did you read 846 and 847? If so, how can you say their presentation of the dogma EENS is entirely orthodox?

    846 is a lie because the truth is, we do not understand the dogma, (here reduced to a mere affirmation), by first re-formulating it, positively or otherwise. The truth is that we understand it, as V1 decreed, "as once declared". Which means the dogma means that all those who die outside of the Church never get to heaven. That's how we are to understand it.

    847 is a lie because the dogma is in fact aimed at everyone. Those who are outside of the Church are there because they do not believe in him, which is a mortal sin - John 16:9. If they die in that state, they go to hell.

    848 is true, and this truth in and of itself proves 846 and 847 to be lies.

    Their presentation is only entirely orthodox by first interpreting the whole thing Liberally, that which is to be understood as declared.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #63 on: January 18, 2020, 10:00:43 AM »
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  • XavierSem, you've jumped the shark.  You're a lunatic if you think the Conciliar sect is holding to any Catholic doctrine, never mind the dogma that outside the church there is no salvation.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #64 on: January 18, 2020, 10:32:28 AM »
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  • XavierSem, you've jumped the shark.  You're a lunatic if you think the Conciliar sect is holding to any Catholic doctrine, never mind the dogma that outside the church there is no salvation.
    Truly! I think he should give his “ full assent of mind and will ” to the heretical VII, the heretical 1983 code, the heretical, so called, “Catechism of the ‘Catholic’ Church”, and the heretical docuмent Amoris laetitia. Wait! I think he already does give his full assent. Do you, Xavier?
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #65 on: January 18, 2020, 10:49:09 AM »
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  • St. Alphonsus ... Thus, anyone who co-operates with God in observing natural law will, by degrees, come to the knowledge of Christ. God's Providence will not fail in this, whether it is sending an Angel, a Preacher, or Interior Illumination, say Sts. Thomas and Alphonsus

    Correct.  And this is exactly what Pius IX taught in his much-distorted Quanto Conficiamur Moerere about invincible ignorance.  Pius IX was NOT teaching Pelagianism in that Encyclical, as the BoDers claim.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #66 on: January 18, 2020, 10:50:23 AM »
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  • XavierSem, you've jumped the shark.  You're a lunatic if you think the Conciliar sect is holding to any Catholic doctrine, never mind the dogma that outside the church there is no salvation.

    Francis Bergoglio has repeatedly claimed that atheists can be saved (i.e. even removing the obligation to believe in the Rewarder God).

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #67 on: January 18, 2020, 07:15:08 PM »
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  • I haven't waded through this thread, but over 20 years ago I attended a talk on creation/evolution. I was very much enlightened by this protestant and open to rejecting evolution outright. So I dutifully went to CCC to find out what it had to say.

    What did I find? absolutely nothing useful to condemn evolution.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024


    Offline poche

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #68 on: January 18, 2020, 11:23:29 PM »
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  • Francis Bergoglio has repeatedly claimed that atheists can be saved (i.e. even removing the obligation to believe in the Rewarder God).
    From the Baltimore Catechism;
    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?
    A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #69 on: January 19, 2020, 02:50:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    Quote from: Clemens Maria You're a lunatic if you think the Conciliar sect is holding to any Catholic doctrine, never mind the dogma that outside the church there is no salvation.

    Why don't you quell the polemics, and actually address the real issue, which you never do? You want to talk about EENS, but you refuse to cite any passage, either pre-Vatican II and comparing it to the Catechism, or anything else: Here is the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X.

    "17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?
    A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire."

    This is standard Catholic Doctrine. Now, if someone wants to give a Dimondite interpretation to EENS, he should be a consistent Dimondite and become an Ibranyist who rejects all the Popes including Pope St. Pius X for nearly a 1000 years. That's what SVism leads to. But if he doesn't want to become an Ibranyist, and rightly so, he should become a Catholic again, and recognize all the Popes recognized by the Catholic Episcopacy, which is the Jurisdictional Hierarchy.

    Now, here are three passages in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which anyone who wants to attack it on EENS, must deal with:

    161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'"

    Question 1 based on 161: Does this statement say believing in Christ who obtained our salvation is necessary for us obtaining our salvation or not? It's plain.

    846 Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

    There is so mortal sin unless it is knowingly committed, this is plainly taught by St. James the Apostle in Scripture, and by Catholic Doctrine itself.

    Question 2 based on 846. Does this statement say that those who are knowingly separated from the Catholic Church cannot be saved or not? Yes or no?

    Question 3 based on 848. Does 848 say God will save the invincibly ignorant or not? And if yes, does it say He will save them in ignorance, or by leading them to the Faith without which it is impossible to please Him? It's very clear to someone who reads without prejudice and without a desire for polemics, but you're not doing that. 848 was cited above.  

    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Stubborn 848 is true, and this truth in and of itself proves 846 and 847 to be lies.
    Incorrect. 848 is true, and this Truth in and of itself proves 846 and 847 to be correct. Do you accept what is taught by Pope St. Pius X?

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #70 on: January 19, 2020, 03:09:47 AM »
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  • Quote
    Correct.  And this is exactly what Pius IX taught in his much-distorted Quanto Conficiamur Moerere about invincible ignorance.  Pius IX was NOT teaching Pelagianism in that Encyclical, as the BoDers claim.
    BOD is also taught by both St. Alphonsus and by Pope St. Pius X explicitly in his Catechism, Ladislaus? What is your excuse/reason for rejecting both, precisely?

    Quote
    Francis Bergoglio has repeatedly claimed that atheists can be saved (i.e. even removing the obligation to believe in the Rewarder God).
    Again, I really wonder if you people ever read a Catechism or an Encyclical for yourself, or just believe what the media reports was supposedly said. This is from Lumen Fidei: "Faith and the search for God

    35. The light of faith in Jesus also illumines the path of all those who seek God, and makes a specifically Christian contribution to dialogue with the followers of the different religions. The Letter to the Hebrews speaks of the witness of those just ones who, before the covenant with Abraham, already sought God in faith. Of Enoch "it was attested that he had pleased God" (Heb 11:5), something impossible apart from faith, for "whoever would approach God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him" (Heb 11:6). We can see from this that the path of religious man passes through the acknowledgment of a God who cares for us and is not impossible to find. What other reward can God give to those who seek him, if not to let himself be found? Even earlier, we encounter Abel, whose faith was praised and whose gifts, his offering of the firstlings of his flock (cf. Heb 11:4), were therefore pleasing to God. Religious man strives to see signs of God in the daily experiences of life, in the cycle of the seasons, in the fruitfulness of the earth and in the movement of the cosmos. God is light and he can be found also by those who seek him with a sincere heart." http://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/docuмents/papa-francesco_20130629_enciclica-lumen-fidei.html

    Pope St. Pius X: "A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

    If someone in good faith who does God's will as best he can is on the way of salvation, then what is written in Lumen Fidei is correct.

    What you don't see is that even after infiltrating the Church right from the 30s (as Bella Dodd testified), even after nearly 90 years, the Communist terrorists have not completely succeeded in destroying the Church. Some of you however are eagerly helping them do that.

    Quote
    What did I find? absolutely nothing useful to condemn evolution.
    Hi Nadir. This is a good point, and I would answer with this: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

    The Catechism says: "Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents." If original sin is a certainty of faith, then for all practical purposes evolution is certainly false, as most evolutionists deny there were first parents of the whole human race. In Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII said polygenism (the idea that that Adam and Eve didn't exist but we have supposed multiple ancestors) didn't enjoy Church approval, but evolution wasn't forbidden.

    It is the same status for now: but there are good reasons to think evolution can never be part of the deposit of Faith. This site Theotokos sums up the reasons, and the Scriptural, Traditional, Magisterial and Scientific Evidence for that: http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/cbutel/humanevo.html


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
    « Reply #71 on: January 19, 2020, 06:53:40 AM »
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  • From the Baltimore Catechism;
    Q. 510. Is it ever possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church?
    A. It is possible for one to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, provided that person:
    1.(1) Has been validly baptized;
    2.(2) Firmly believes the religion he professes and practices to be the true religion, and
    3.(3) Dies without the guilt of mortal sin on his soul.

    Q. 511. Why do we say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the CatholicChurch to be the true Church?
    A. We say it is only possible for a person to be saved who does not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, because the necessary conditions are not often found, especially that of dying in a state of grace without making use of the Sacrament of Penance.

    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/catechism/baltimore-catechism/lesson-11-on-the-church
    Mark was absolutely right about you, Poche. You are a liar and you distort the truth. You must know full well that this doesn’t apply to atheists and if you don’t, you are completely stupid. I don’t believe that the later is the case.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?