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Author Topic: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?  (Read 6084 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2019, 04:28:49 PM »
The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not say that Muslims can be saved, it says 161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/161.htm

It is obvious from that statement that Muslims, Jews and other deniers of Christ's Divinity, even if they believe there is one God, cannot be saved; for believing in Jesus Christ is necessary to obtain that salvation that He obtained for us. The presentation of EENS, which occurs much later in the Catechism, is also entirely orthodox:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

(1) It doesn't say those invincibly ignorant can be saved as they are. It says those invincibly ignorant will be led by God "to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him", i.e. to saving faith in Jesus Christ, by which they can obtain His salvation. It also says (1) The Church has the obligation and the sacred right to evangelize all men. And (2) all who are knowingly separated from the Church - which means, even those Christians to whom the necessity of the Church has been proposed, but who, by obstinate separation, have become formal heretics or schismatics - cannot be saved. These three teachings cover the basic doctrine of EENS as Tradition teaches it.

If they (the current Conciliar Magisterium under Francis, and that under his Conciliar predecessors) really believe faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, why don't (didn't) they say it in no uncertain terms and when the opportunity offered (as it repeatedly and endlessly did - witness their constant ecuмenical activities)? Wait. It's worse than them simply not saying it: why do (did) they freely allow the opposite impression - that Muslims, Jews, and those who deny Christ's divinity can be saved in their religion - to thrive in those ecuмenical activities.

And the various Sede and R & R churchmen are no better. They may avoid the activities, but they fill up the confusion with the same false words, words, words. I'd almost give an arm for either Sanborn, Dolan, Cekada, Fellay, Williamson, etc. to come out, look into the damn camera, and say, "one must have the Catholic faith to be saved, which, at a minimum, requires belief in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and the Incarnation of the Son as man to pay the price for our sin."  

And if they believed that, their conduct in allowing the contrary impression to thrive is criminal, since it's basically smiling and shaking hands while countless millions go to hell before their eyes.

I think it would be better for their eternal souls, Xavier, if they actually disagreed with you and denied the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation.

Their repentance could start with excising the word "implicit" from their vocabularies on this subject, or at least redefining it responsibly.

Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2020, 02:36:40 AM »
The sede sects are far worse in EENS, for many of them reject the plain sense of the Athanasian Creed. Implicit Baptism of Desire is Catholic Doctrine, it is taught even by His Holiness Pope St. Pius X in his Catechism. The idea of salvation by implicit faith in Christ is a different idea and an erroneous one. The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, favors explicit faith.

Here's the state of the question on explicit and implicit faith in Christ, per 3 pre-Vatican II authorities, and the teaching of St. Alphonsus, who cites St. Thomas and others.

Fr. Sylvester Hunter, in Outlines of Dogmatic Theology (1895) writes: "Regarding the points on which explicit knowledge is required as the indispensable means of justification, this certainly extends to the belief that God exists and that He shows Himself the Rewarder of them that seek Him.  This amount of belief is declared by St. Paul to be essential, if any one will please God. (Hebrews 11:6) ... So far there is universal agreement, and in fact the necessity that we have stated is not open to doubt, for Pope Innocent XI condemned the assertion that explicit belief that God rewards is not necessary (prop. 22; Denz. 1039).  There is a controversy whether St. Paul, in the passage quoted, intended to mention all that is necessary, or whether explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is required ... many followers of the Thomist school hold that it has been necessary since the revelation was brought by Christ ...  These found their opinion upon the language of Scripture, which frequently speaks of faith in Christ as the essential condition of salvation; and to believe in Christ means to believe that He is God and Man."

Fr. Michael Mueller, CSSR, citing St. Alphonsus and other authorities: "Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles - the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons - is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.”

Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, writing during the reign of Pope Ven. Pius XII: "most theologians teach that the minimum explicit content of supernatural and salvific faith includes, not only the truths of God’s existence and of His action as the Rewarder of good and the Punisher of evil, but also the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation"

In Theologia Moralis, Lib.III, Cap 1, Q. 2 St. Alphonsus wrote against implicit faith: "They [the proponents of salvation by implicit faith in Christ] respond that even though all the Scriptures and Holy Fathers’ testimonies oppose this opinion, their opinion [the "opinion" of the Scriptures, as confirmed by the exegesis of the unanimous "opinion" of the Fathers] is more easily explained by necessity of precept, or because ordinarily almost none are saved without explicit faith in the mysteries, because after the promulgation of the gospel almost no one labors out of invincible ignorance."

St. Alphonsus also answers the most common objection to it, citing St. Thomas "What about those who are too difficult for God to reach?" - "Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor, God, at least remotely, gives to infidels [non-Christians], who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul" Thus, anyone who co-operates with God in observing natural law will, by degrees, come to the knowledge of Christ. God's Providence will not fail in this, whether it is sending an Angel, a Preacher, or Interior Illumination, say Sts. Thomas and Alphonsus

If we take the Creed of St. Athanasius in its most plain sense, "Whoever wishes to be saved must above all hold the Catholic Faith ... the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship God in Trinity and Trinity in unity ... which faith except a man hold firmly and faithfully, without a doubt he will perish in eternity.. he therefore that will be saved, let him think thus on the Trinity. Further it is necessary for eternal salvation that he also believes in the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ", Tradition also favors explicit over implicit faith.

Notice how beautifully the Magisterium teaches, "848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338. This means that those who are invincible ignorance, can be saved, but not as they are; they will be led by God, in a way known to Him, to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him, which in light of CCC 161, was earlier declared to be faith in Jesus Christ, for it said faith in Jesus Christ and the One Who sent Him for our Salvation is necessary for obtaining that Salvation.

For the sede and other separated sects to return to the Catholic Church, full assent of mind and will to the Catechism is requisite.


Online Stubborn

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Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2020, 05:01:14 AM »
It is obvious from that statement that Muslims, Jews and other deniers of Christ's Divinity, even if they believe there is one God, cannot be saved; for believing in Jesus Christ is necessary to obtain that salvation that He obtained for us. The presentation of EENS, which occurs much later in the Catechism, is also entirely orthodox:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Did you read 846 and 847? If so, how can you say their presentation of the dogma EENS is entirely orthodox?

846 is a lie because the truth is, we do not understand the dogma, (here reduced to a mere affirmation), by first re-formulating it, positively or otherwise. The truth is that we understand it, as V1 decreed, "as once declared". Which means the dogma means that all those who die outside of the Church never get to heaven. That's how we are to understand it.

847 is a lie because the dogma is in fact aimed at everyone. Those who are outside of the Church are there because they do not believe in him, which is a mortal sin - John 16:9. If they die in that state, they go to hell.

848 is true, and this truth in and of itself proves 846 and 847 to be lies.

Their presentation is only entirely orthodox by first interpreting the whole thing Liberally, that which is to be understood as declared.

Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2020, 10:00:43 AM »
XavierSem, you've jumped the shark.  You're a lunatic if you think the Conciliar sect is holding to any Catholic doctrine, never mind the dogma that outside the church there is no salvation.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Problems with the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2020, 10:32:28 AM »
XavierSem, you've jumped the shark.  You're a lunatic if you think the Conciliar sect is holding to any Catholic doctrine, never mind the dogma that outside the church there is no salvation.
Truly! I think he should give his “ full assent of mind and will ” to the heretical VII, the heretical 1983 code, the heretical, so called, “Catechism of the ‘Catholic’ Church”, and the heretical docuмent Amoris laetitia. Wait! I think he already does give his full assent. Do you, Xavier?