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Offline kamalayka

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Pro-V2 article Excerpt
« on: December 10, 2009, 09:36:26 PM »
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  • (intro from an article I found)

    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council

    Sixteen official council docuмents emerged from sessions in which schemata were proposed, altered, replaced, argued, and ultimately voted on. Each of the conciliar docuмents can be parsed back into a written record of such debates and discussion, but there is no need to characterize such debates in terms of obscurantists and enlightened progressives - not even when, as in the case of the Declaration on Religious Liberty, the debate defines itself in terms of such opponents. For in the end, it is the final docuмent that trumps all earlier arguments and discussion. Once voted on and promulgated by the Pope, a conciliar docuмent is no longer the victory of one side or the triumph of a faction: it becomes part of the Magisterium of the Church.

    There is little doubt that, in the minds of many observers, reporters, and even periti, a struggle was going on between the traditionalists and the innovators. Even if this mirrored a struggle among the Fathers of the council, when the dust settled, when the final vote was taken, when a docuмent was approved and promulgated by the Pope, it was the product of the teaching Church. And in Her role as teacher, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Whatever spirited battles took place in the course of the council, the only spirit that matters is the Holy Spirit, whose influence on the promulgated docuмent is guaranteed.

    Studying the record of discussions among the bishops, of drafts of docuмents, and the proposals for change can, of course, aid us in understanding the final approved results. But it is the final docuмents as approved by the bishops and promulgated by the Pope that contain the official teaching of the Catholic Church. And Catholics have a duty to accept the teaching of a council.

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church spells out the infallibility of an ecuмenical council:

        "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the Faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to Faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an ecuмenical council."

    Consequently, the teachings of the Second Vatican Council are the official teachings of the Church. That is why the more than thirty years that have passed since the close of the council are evaluated by the Church in the light of the council.

    That is why Paul VI and John Paul II have regarded their papacies as dedicated to the implementation of what was decided during those fateful three years of the council.

    That is why rejecting the council is simply not an option for Catholics.

    And that is why Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's schismatic movement involved an internal incoherence. He sought to appeal to earlier councils in order to discredit Vatican II. But that which guarantees the truth of the teaching of one council guarantees the truth of them all. Popes Paul VI and John Paul II exhibited a long patience with Archbishop Lefebvre. Eventually, he undertook to consecrate new bishops in defiance of the Vatican, and no more patience was possible. He was excommunicated.

    What Vatican II Says About the Pope

    The same long patience has been shown to dissenting theologians who have undertaken to appoint themselves the final arbiters of Catholic truth and to inform the faithful that they need not accept the teachings of the Holy Father.

    Often, they justify this dissent by citing "the spirit of Vatican II," which one theologian explains as follows:

        Vatican Council II was an example of democracy in action. Opinion had been widespread that, with the definition of papal infallibility, councils would no longer be needed or held. After Vatican I, it seemed the Pope would function as the Church's sole teacher. Vatican II, however, showed what could be accomplished in the Church when all the bishops worked together. There was significant input from theologians (some formerly silenced). Protestant observers made an important contribution.

    Vatican II urges us to balance what the Magisterium says with other points of view throughout the Church. Magisterial teaching is referred to as the "official" teaching of the Church, as if there were another, rival teaching that could trump the Pope.

    But what does Vatican II itself say about this? After speaking of the college of bishops and the collegiality that characterizes the episcopal office, Vatican II declares that not even bishops, acting apart from the Pope, have any authority in the Church:

        The college or body of bishops has for all that no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head, whose primatial authority, let it be added, over all, whether pastors or faithful, remains in its integrity. For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as the Vicar of Christ, namely, and as pastor of the entire Church) has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.



    Obviously, if even bishops, singly or collectively, have no authority apart from the Pope, no other group in the Church has such authority. No other group has the role of accepting or rejecting papal teaching and advising the faithful that they may rightly reject papal teaching.

    In a word, according to, Vatican II, the Pope is "the supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful," the successor of St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth. He is head of the college of bishops. He can himself, independent of the bishops, exercise the supreme Magisterium.

    In light of this, there seems simply to be no way to read the teachings of Vatican II and find in them any basis for the postconciliar view promoted by some theologians that papal teaching can be legitimately rejected by Catholics.

    Yet some theologians continue trying. They suggest that Catholics are bound only by Church teaching that is infallible by dint of being formally and solemnly defined. According to them, such instruments of the Magisterium as encyclicals should be treated with respect, but Catholics have the option of setting their teaching aside.

    Catholics Must Submit to the Pope

    Is there any support in Vatican II for such a conception? Is acceptance on the part of the faithful limited to solemnly defined teachings, clearly infallible for that reason? The Second Vatican Council also answers this question clearly and forcefully:

        This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given in a special way to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra, in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to the decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention, which is made known principally either by the character of the docuмents in question, or by the frequency with which. a certain doctrine is proposed, or by the manner in which the doctrine is formulated.

    Unfortunately, some theologians, particularly moral theologians, for reasons we will examine in subsequent chapters, have simply rejected this clear teaching of Vatican II. They have come to see their role as one of criticizing, passing judgment on, and even dismissing magisterial teaching.

    There is no surer protection against this attempted usurpation than the docuмents of Vatican II themselves and particularly the passages just quoted from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium.


    There is, of course, something odd in the effort to quarrel with what are obviously teachings of the Church and therefore require religious assent from Catholics. It is almost as if the aim were to discover how little one need believe. But surely, as Vatican II urges, it should be the mark of Catholics that they take on the mind and heart of the Church and show gratitude for God's great gift of the Magisterium.

    The calibration of Church teachings that is suggested by distinguishing between the ordinary and extraordinary Magisterium is an important one, but it does not justify any distinction between magisterial, papal teachings that need to be accepted by Catholics and those that do not.

    Indeed, to advise Catholics to ignore clear magisterial teachings is to advise them to reject the clear teaching of Vatican II. How ironic that the council should be invoked as warrant for dissenting from the Magisterium when it is precisely the council that rules this out.

    To accept Vatican II is to accept what the council says about the Magisterium and the Catholic's obligation to obey it.




    Offline TheD

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 09:40:32 PM »
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  • Offline kamalayka

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #2 on: December 10, 2009, 10:22:34 PM »
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  • Offline TheD

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #3 on: December 10, 2009, 10:28:22 PM »
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  • You ACTUALLY responded.   :surprised:  Now if you can respond to all of my and everyone elses posts.

    Offline Boniface

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #4 on: December 10, 2009, 11:43:13 PM »
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  •  someone is getting a big carried away with the copy and paste buttons this evening.



    Offline CM

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #5 on: December 11, 2009, 12:27:56 AM »
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  • Tell me about it.  Not tom mention cannot answer the charge of hypocrisy.

    Offline Belloc

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 01:29:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: kamalayka
    (intro from an article I found)

    Catholics Cannot Reject the Council

    Sixteen official council docuмents emerged from sessions in which schemata were proposed, altered, replaced, argued, and ultimately voted on. Each of the conciliar docuмents can be parsed back into a written record of such debates and discussion, but there is no need to characterize such debates in terms of obscurantists and enlightened progressives - not even when, as in the case of the Declaration on Religious Liberty, the debate defines itself in terms of such opponents. For in the end, it is the final docuмent that trumps all earlier arguments and discussion. Once voted on and promulgated by the Pope, a conciliar docuмent is no longer the victory of one side or the triumph of a faction: it becomes part of the Magisterium of the Church.

    There is little doubt that, in the minds of many observers, reporters, and even periti, a struggle was going on between the traditionalists and the innovators. Even if this mirrored a struggle among the Fathers of the council, when the dust settled, when the final vote was taken, when a docuмent was approved and promulgated by the Pope, it was the product of the teaching Church. And in Her role as teacher, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Whatever spirited battles took place in the course of the council, the only spirit that matters is the Holy Spirit, whose influence on the promulgated docuмent is guaranteed.

    Studying the record of discussions among the bishops, of drafts of docuмents, and the proposals for change can, of course, aid us in understanding the final approved results. But it is the final docuмents as approved by the bishops and promulgated by the Pope that contain the official teaching of the Catholic Church. And Catholics have a duty to accept the teaching of a council.

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church spells out the infallibility of an ecuмenical council:

        "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the Faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to Faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an ecuмenical council."

    Consequently, the teachings of the Second Vatican Council are the official teachings of the Church. That is why the more than thirty years that have passed since the close of the council are evaluated by the Church in the light of the council.

    That is why Paul VI and John Paul II have regarded their papacies as dedicated to the implementation of what was decided during those fateful three years of the council.

    That is why rejecting the council is simply not an option for Catholics.

    And that is why Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's schismatic movement involved an internal incoherence. He sought to appeal to earlier councils in order to discredit Vatican II. But that which guarantees the truth of the teaching of one council guarantees the truth of them all. Popes Paul VI and John Paul II exhibited a long patience with Archbishop Lefebvre. Eventually, he undertook to consecrate new bishops in defiance of the Vatican, and no more patience was possible. He was excommunicated.

    What Vatican II Says About the Pope

    The same long patience has been shown to dissenting theologians who have undertaken to appoint themselves the final arbiters of Catholic truth and to inform the faithful that they need not accept the teachings of the Holy Father.

    Often, they justify this dissent by citing "the spirit of Vatican II," which one theologian explains as follows:

        Vatican Council II was an example of democracy in action. Opinion had been widespread that, with the definition of papal infallibility, councils would no longer be needed or held. After Vatican I, it seemed the Pope would function as the Church's sole teacher. Vatican II, however, showed what could be accomplished in the Church when all the bishops worked together. There was significant input from theologians (some formerly silenced). Protestant observers made an important contribution.

    Vatican II urges us to balance what the Magisterium says with other points of view throughout the Church. Magisterial teaching is referred to as the "official" teaching of the Church, as if there were another, rival teaching that could trump the Pope.

    But what does Vatican II itself say about this? After speaking of the college of bishops and the collegiality that characterizes the episcopal office, Vatican II declares that not even bishops, acting apart from the Pope, have any authority in the Church:

        The college or body of bishops has for all that no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head, whose primatial authority, let it be added, over all, whether pastors or faithful, remains in its integrity. For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as the Vicar of Christ, namely, and as pastor of the entire Church) has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.



    Obviously, if even bishops, singly or collectively, have no authority apart from the Pope, no other group in the Church has such authority. No other group has the role of accepting or rejecting papal teaching and advising the faithful that they may rightly reject papal teaching.

    In a word, according to, Vatican II, the Pope is "the supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful," the successor of St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth. He is head of the college of bishops. He can himself, independent of the bishops, exercise the supreme Magisterium.

    In light of this, there seems simply to be no way to read the teachings of Vatican II and find in them any basis for the postconciliar view promoted by some theologians that papal teaching can be legitimately rejected by Catholics.

    Yet some theologians continue trying. They suggest that Catholics are bound only by Church teaching that is infallible by dint of being formally and solemnly defined. According to them, such instruments of the Magisterium as encyclicals should be treated with respect, but Catholics have the option of setting their teaching aside.

    Catholics Must Submit to the Pope

    Is there any support in Vatican II for such a conception? Is acceptance on the part of the faithful limited to solemnly defined teachings, clearly infallible for that reason? The Second Vatican Council also answers this question clearly and forcefully:

        This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given in a special way to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra, in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to the decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention, which is made known principally either by the character of the docuмents in question, or by the frequency with which. a certain doctrine is proposed, or by the manner in which the doctrine is formulated.

    Unfortunately, some theologians, particularly moral theologians, for reasons we will examine in subsequent chapters, have simply rejected this clear teaching of Vatican II. They have come to see their role as one of criticizing, passing judgment on, and even dismissing magisterial teaching.

    There is no surer protection against this attempted usurpation than the docuмents of Vatican II themselves and particularly the passages just quoted from the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium.


    There is, of course, something odd in the effort to quarrel with what are obviously teachings of the Church and therefore require religious assent from Catholics. It is almost as if the aim were to discover how little one need believe. But surely, as Vatican II urges, it should be the mark of Catholics that they take on the mind and heart of the Church and show gratitude for God's great gift of the Magisterium.

    The calibration of Church teachings that is suggested by distinguishing between the ordinary and extraordinary Magisterium is an important one, but it does not justify any distinction between magisterial, papal teachings that need to be accepted by Catholics and those that do not.

    Indeed, to advise Catholics to ignore clear magisterial teachings is to advise them to reject the clear teaching of Vatican II. How ironic that the council should be invoked as warrant for dissenting from the Magisterium when it is precisely the council that rules this out.

    To accept Vatican II is to accept what the council says about the Magisterium and the Catholic's obligation to obey it.




    source please-that would help and be telling.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #7 on: December 11, 2009, 01:31:09 PM »
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  • Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Belloc

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #8 on: December 11, 2009, 01:35:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Boniface
    someone is getting a big carried away with the copy and paste buttons this evening.



    same thing that happend with my friend "Thomas" noted in teh other thread........all he could do was copy/paste Neocaths and modernists, plus the V2 docuмents, as if a "tad-da" moment....for him, if it did not specifically say "you can worship other gods" or "pagans are saved" in there, then it was not true what I and others said, even quotes from teh mouths themselves of the moderenists! THose that planned and plotted for yrs-wrote under assumed names, published under ground, hid and polluted seminaries,etc........

    sort of like a Bible alone approach, instead of "if its not in the bible, I will not belevie it", it was more "if it is not spelled out clearly in V2 docuмents, I will not beleive it"....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #9 on: December 11, 2009, 01:39:45 PM »
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  • Rome spoke before Vatican II.  What it taught before Vatican II condemns what it does today.

    If what was taught before Vatican II is wrong then there is no reason to give Rome any authority today.  When Rome by its actions contradicts the perennial Magisterium it cannot be the perennial Magisterium that is wrong.

    Those who pray with Jєωs heretics and pagans are those who are in the wrong.

    Offline Belloc

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    Pro-V2 article Excerpt
    « Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 02:04:30 PM »
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  • he seems to be thinking that contradictions are ok, if he admits to them at all.......see 1984...2+2=4 AND 2+2=5

    spirit of Vatican II
     the post-1962 zeitgeist which blew the the human element of the Church wide open to practices that aren't remotely orthodox, changed the presentation of doctrine and dogma, and dared to try to turn Holy Mother Church into a democracy that has "social justice" as Her purpose for existing. The invitation of this wondrous "spirit" was to have been an "opening of the window" of the Church to let in some fresh air, and who'd argue that a nice little breeze on a sunny day isn't a good thing? But one shouldn't throw open the shutters when the weather outside is frightful -- and there's nothing more frightful than the 1960s (well, except for the stifling, racist, far-too-conformist 1950s, but I digress again). It's sad that so few had the brains to leave the window closed, or to close it once the the polluted waters started rising in the corridors. It's even more pathetic that now, after 40 years of staring at the wreckage, so many Catholics think the deluge was a good thing or are too afraid to demand a clean-up.  


    and:

    Vatican II
     to far too many Catholics, the closing of Vatican II happened in Year One for the Church. Nothing existed before it, and everything that has come since has been nothing but daffodils and whiskers on kittens


    source: http://www.fisheaters.com/modernist2catholicdictionary.html
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic