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Author Topic: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book  (Read 4244 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2018, 10:33:22 PM »
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    Pax Vobis, sedeprivationism holds that the Vatican II claimants are not true popes and have no authority to teach rule and sanctify. It holds that these men are mere designees to the papacy from a legitimate papal election, but have no authoritative power whatsoever. They are pope elects.  If one doesn't adhere to this thesis, then one is not a sedeprivationist but something else.
    I disagree with your explanation above but I know what you’re trying to say.  

    A pope elect is still the pope.  One cannot be elected to an office they cannot hold.  That’s a contradiction.  So if they were elected, they are pope.  

    Sedeprivationism distinguishes between the spiritual and material offices of the pope, because the papacy is both a divine and human office.  A pope who is a heretic would incur excommunication BUT still hold his material office and be able to rule the HUMAN AFFAIRS of the Church.  Thus, sedeprivationism says the pope is “impaired” spiritually (as Fr Chazal put it) but he’s still the pope.  Since the pope’s “impairment” was self-inflicted, so it can be reversed by the pope himself, if he repented.  Thus, he’s still the pope.

    Anyone who explains sedeprivationism in a different way is, in my opinion, not making the necessary distinctions and is simply lumping this situation into a “flavor” of sedvacantism, which it is not.  It’s very distinct.

    I agree that Fr Wathen never mentioned this specific term (because I don’t think he cared enough to spend much time on it), however his description perfectly matches what Fr Chazal describes, in my opinion.  


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #31 on: September 10, 2018, 11:00:07 PM »
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  • In the words of Mons. Des Lauriers himself:

    Quote
    A) El ocupante de la Sede Apostólica (el Cardenal Montini, al menos desde el 7 de diciembre de 1965, Mons. Luciani, Mons. Wojtyla) no es Papa formaliter. No hay que designarlo con el término Papa.
    Es decir, que el mencionado “ocupante” no es, en ninguno de sus actos, el Vicario de Jesucristo. Estos actos, en cuanto precisamente pretenden ser actos del Papa como tal, son nulos. No hay que desobedecer a las “órdenes” pretendidamente dictadas por Mons. Wojtyla en cuanto Papa, pues no es en acto el Vicario de Jesucristo. Todas las órdenes dictadas a este pseudo-título son vanas, nulas, sin ningún alcance en la realidad.

    Hay que ignorar, no que desobedecer.

    Using Google Translate from the interview in Spanish:

    Quote
    A) The occupant of the Apostolic See (Cardinal Montini, at least since December 7, 1965, Bishop Luciani, Bishop Wojtyla) is not Papa formaliter. It is not necessary to designate it with the term Pope.
    That is to say, that the aforementioned "occupant" is not, in any of his acts, the Vicar of Jesus Christ. These acts, in so far as they pretend to be acts of the Pope as such, are null and void. It is not necessary to disobey the "orders" allegedly dictated by Mons. Wojtyla as Pope, since he is not in fact the Vicar of Jesus Christ. All the orders dictated to this pseudo-title are vain, null, without any scope in reality.

    You have to ignore, NOT disobey.



    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline AlbertP

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #32 on: September 10, 2018, 11:00:20 PM »
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  • Well, they're going to depose him after the fact that is no longer pope. They do not depose a pope, but rather a heretic who is not pope anymore though he was one before turning into a heretic.
    But when did the Bishops find out he wasn't pope?  During the council?  Before they found out, was he still the pope?  If not, how was he able to convene the council the bishops attended when they found out he wasn't the pope?
    Struthio: "P.S.: Please note: "obedient to the supreme Pontiff as long as he is pope". According to St. Robert, R&R is not recommendable."


    That's not what he meant. The context is whether it's necessary for the oath of fidelity that the bishops swear to the pope to be temporarily suspended, during the council, so that they can speak and act freely.  Bellarmine says no, it is not necessary, nor is it just, since the bishops must obey him "as long as he is the Pope", and "provided he commands these things which, according to God and the sacred canons he can command." 
     
    St. Bellarmine, like all other saints and doctors of the Church, teaches that a pope is not to be obeyed if he commands anything against the divine law or the sacred canons.  He also teaches that a pope who is attempting to destroy the Church should be "resisted", by not doing what he commands, and even by blocking the Pope from carrying out his evil designs. 
     

    St. Robert Bellarmine: “Just as it would be lawful to resist a Pontiff invading a body, so it is lawful to resist him invading souls or disturbing a state, and much more if he should endeavor to destroy the Church. I say, it is lawful to resist him, by not doing what he commands, and by blocking him, lest he should carry out his will.” De Romano Pontifice, bk. 2, ch. 29.



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #33 on: September 11, 2018, 04:58:52 AM »
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  • If Fr. Wathen were a sedeprivationist then there would have been zero reason to write the Great Sacrilege and cite extensively from Church law to prove that Paul VI issued an illicit Mass. All he would have had to say was that Paul VI was a public heretic before his election and therefore could not be a true pope, only a designee, and therefore all of his acts were completely invalid. The book would have been a half page long.



    Full text of the video:

    "Now that we have a new Pope, there are those who have done their research and concluded and pronounced that "We have no pope." We call these people "Sedevacantists," because they hereby say that the Chair of St. Peter is still vacant. Presumably, they will do us the unsolicited service of informing us of the arrival of a pope whom they have validated.

    This great division among "Traditionalists" is truly lamentable, and unhealthy, but, evidently, there is no helping it. Argument is useless. For this reason, here, I am not speaking to Sedevacantists, but to those who feel some urgency, some need or obligation, to arrive at a conclusion as to whether the new Pope, Benedict XVI, is a legitimate successor of St. Peter. The theology of the matter is so clear and simple that it is rather surprising that this division exists at all. I have made an effort in the book, "Who Shall Ascend?," to lay this theology out in an orderly fashion, but evidently my effort was unsuccessful. This is not altogether inexplicable, because, after all, it is a theological matter, a matter of both moral theology and Canon Law, which most people are not schooled in and have no need to be schooled in, because, in the present instance, they really do not need to know the arguments for and against the legitimacy of the present Pope. The matter really does not concern them practically, even if they wish to concern themselves with it theoretically, a truth I cannot state emphatically enough.

    Here I wish to abbreviate what is said in the pages of the aforesaid book.

    Prima sedes a nemine judicatur

    This is Canon 1556, which I failed to quote in my book, though I did state the fact of the law and the ecclesiastical admonition. These words mean: "The First Chair is judged by no one;" which means that none of the pope's subjects are allowed to judge the status of him who sits on the Throne of St. Peter. We may judge his theology and his public acts, as we are bound to judge the beliefs and ideas of everyone with whom we come into serious contact; but we may not judge whether he is the legitimate pope. Sedevacantists claim to be very expert about Canon 181, but Canon 1556 has somehow eluded them.

    I should be able to stop right here, because a good Catholic should be satisfied with this directive. Holy Mother Church tells her children, "The legitimacy of the pope is not your concern; it is the concern of Christ only, because, He alone has authority over the pope, and He has the power to solve any problems that may arise from his being illegitimate, should the case ever occur." A sensible Catholic should be able to deduce from this directive that the legitimacy (or lack of it) of the pope does not bear on his religious obligations, that his religious obligations are no different whether the pope is legal or illegal, that concern about the matter is a distraction from his relationship to Christ and the Church, a source of spiritual disquiet. Therefore, to the extent that it is possible, for the sake of his peace of mind and attention to his own spiritual welfare, the sensible Catholic should resolve to stay as far away from Sedevacantists and their writings as possible. Furthermore, any Catholic who feels bound and determined to pursue this matter, no matter what the Church says, is neither sensible, nor pious, nor humble, no matter how well-intentioned he credits himself with being. Neither is he seriously desirous of growing in virtue and loving union with Christ; instead, he wants something to distract him from his prayers and pursuit of spiritual intimacy.

    The main argument of the Sedevacantists is that an heretical pope has incurred the censure of excommunication. By excommunication, he has been expelled from the Church. As a non-Catholic, it is impossible for him to be the head of the Catholic Church. He may, therefore, occupy the Chair of St. Peter, but he most certainly does not have his authority. He can rightly be called a "usurper."

    I do not know why it is so difficult to impart the idea that the word, "excommunication" does not mean expulsion. It is impossible for anyone for any reason to be expelled from the Church; the indelible mark of Baptism makes it so. Excommunication means that the individual who has received this censure is, by reason of some specific sin, rendered incapable of participating in the communal life of the Church, and forbidden to try to do so. He may not, therefore, act as usher, sing in the choir, be a witness at a marriage, etc. Due to this censure, if he be a cleric, he is forbidden to exercise whatever office he may hold, whether he be a pope, a bishop, a pastor, or whatever. Whether the individual actually loses his office, depends upon what kind of sin he committed and what the law says about this censurable infraction.

    What is important in this context is that it is not the business of the ordinary Catholic priest or lay person, or anyone who has no authority over such an individual to concern himself with his legal status. No matter what is the said individual's status, the religious obligations of his subjects are in no way altered thereby.

    The next is a key point: Sedevacantists say that it is necessary to know whether the pope and the bishops are "in office" or "out of office" that we may know whether we are bound to obey them. If the pope is not the pope, we do not have to obey him, we do not, therefore, have to accept the New Mass, and all the other changes in the Church, which have been introduced since the Second Vatican Council. If they hold their offices legitimately, then we must obey them. Since they do not, we are in no way bound. We can therefore ignore them and their commands and procedures and do the things which legitimate popes and bishops of the past have imposed upon us.

    This position is altogether wrong. The reason we do not have to accept the changes wrought by the Conciliar Popes (of whom Pope Benedict XVI most certainly will prove to be one) is not that the lawgivers are illegitimate, but that THERE ARE NO LEGAL LAWS which bind us to do so, and, these individuals, legitimate or illegitimate, have neither the authority nor the power to require us by law to abandon the traditional beliefs and practices of our holy religion.

    Moreover, just because we claim that these men do not have the authority to command us to violate the established laws and customs of the Church, we are not thereby removing ourselves from their authority, we are not disobedient to them, and we are not in a state of schism. Should they govern according to the laws of the Church, we would obey them and their new laws, should they make any.

    We do not have to accept the New Mass, not because the Conciliar Popes have all been illegitimate, but because the Old Mass was established by inviolable law to be the only legal and acceptable Mass of the Roman Rite for all time to come. Just as it is totally impossible for a pope to exempt all Catholics from ever having to go to Mass on Sunday again, just as it is impossible for any pope to exempt all men from entering the Church for salvation, just as it is impossible for any pope to make a woman a priest, it is impossible for any pope to create a "new mass" and bind his subjects to attend it.

    What I say of the Mass, I can say of many other things. A legitimate pope cannot nullify valid marriages; he cannot appoint his own successor; he cannot disqualify certain cardinals from their right to participate in the election of his successor; he cannot reduce the number of Sacraments; he cannot change the forms of the Sacraments so as to render them invalid; and so on.

    How do we know what things the pope can and cannot legitimately do? We do not have to know. The only thing we have to know is our obligations to Christ as Catholics, all of which have been laid down for us for many centuries, all of which make up the traditional Catholic religion, practically all of which can be found in the catechism."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #34 on: September 11, 2018, 09:00:31 AM »
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  • In the words of Mons. Des Lauriers himself:

    Using Google Translate from the interview in Spanish:

    Interesting that Father Chazal also says they must be ignored rather than disobeyed ... that their acts are null and void.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #35 on: September 11, 2018, 10:02:49 AM »
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  • St. Robert Bellarmine: “Just as it would be lawful to resist a Pontiff invading a body, so it is lawful to resist him invading souls or disturbing a state, and much more if he should endeavor to destroy the Church. I say, it is lawful to resist him, by not doing what he commands, and by blocking him, lest he should carry out his will.” De Romano Pontifice, bk. 2, ch. 29.

    Bellarmine is talking about the resistance which may be given by a king in the case of a morally evil Pope who issues unjust commands. He is not talking about a heretical Pope, which he addresses in the next chapter (30), where he concludes that a heretical Pope ceases to be Pope simply because he ceases to be a member of the Church.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #36 on: September 11, 2018, 10:10:05 AM »
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    It is impossible for anyone for any reason to be expelled from the Church; the indelible mark of Baptism makes it so.

    Bergoglio said something on this regard as well, but I am pretty sure that formal heresy and schism expels you from the Church. Otherwise, heretics and schismatics would still be members of the Church, and the Council of Florence on EENS would not make sense.  


    Bellarmine, RP, Ch 30:
    Quote
    According to what St. Cyprian affirms in this passage, even had Novatian been the true and legitimate Pope, he would have automatically fallen from the pontificate, if he separated himself from the Church.
     
    This is the opinion of great recent doctors, as John Driedo (lib. 4 de Script. et dogmat. Eccles., cap. 2, par. 2, sent. 2), who teaches that only they separate themselves from the Church who are expelled, like the excommunicated, and those who depart by themselves from her or oppose her, as heretics and schismatics. And in his seventh affirmation, he maintains that in those who turn away from the Church, there remains absolutely no spiritual power over those who are in the Church. Melchior Cano says the same (lib. 4 de loc., cap. 2), teaching that heretics are neither parts nor members of the Church, and that it cannot even be conceived that anyone could be head and Pope, without being member and part (cap. ult. ad argument. 12). And he teaches in the same place, in plain words, that occult heretics are still of the Church, they are parts and members, and that therefore the Pope who is an occult heretic is still Pope. This is also the opinion of the other authors whom we cite in book De Ecclesia.
     
    The foundation of this argument is that the manifest heretic is not in any way a member of the Church, that is, neither spiritually nor corporally, which signifies that he is not such by internal union nor by external union. For even bad Catholics are united and are members, spiritually by faith, corporally by confession of faith and by participation in the visible sacraments; the occult heretics are united and are members although only by external union; on the contrary, the good catechumens belong to the Church only by an internal union, not by the external; but manifest heretics do not pertain in any manner, as we have already proved.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #37 on: September 11, 2018, 10:53:42 AM »
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  • Quote
    I am pretty sure that formal heresy and schism expels you from the Church. Otherwise, heretics and schismatics would still be members of the Church, and the Council of Florence on EENS would not make sense.  
    The way I interpret Fr Wathen on this is that when he says "once a catholic, always a catholic", he's simply referring to the baptismal character.  So, a schismatic or heretic, if they want to repent and come back to the Church, would not be re-baptized (as this is impossible) but would simply renounce their errors and go to confession.

    Compare this with an atheist or freemason who has never been baptized.  Their conversion would take much longer, as they'd have to learn the faith and take catechism classes.

    So, when you say that heresy or schism "expels one from the Church" that is true (from a spiritual standpoint) but not true from a membership standpoint (since a baptized person is still a member of the Church, in a sense).  If one could truly get expelled from the Church, then re-baptism would be required.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #38 on: September 11, 2018, 11:02:52 AM »
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  • The way I interpret Fr Wathen on this is that when he says "once a catholic, always a catholic", he's simply referring to the baptismal character.  So, a schismatic or heretic, if they want to repent and come back to the Church, would not be re-baptized (as this is impossible) but would simply renounce their errors and go to confession.

    That's the only thing he COULD mean, without grave error, because it's pretty much a unanimous teaching of the OUM, and also reiterated by Pope Pius XII, that heretics cease to be members of the Church and are no longer Catholic.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #39 on: September 11, 2018, 11:28:34 AM »
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  • Considering that he mentions the "indelible mark of baptism" it is logical to assume that's what he means when he says a heretic is "still catholic".

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #40 on: September 11, 2018, 11:48:46 AM »
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  • The way I interpret Fr Wathen on this is that when he says "once a catholic, always a catholic", he's simply referring to the baptismal character.  So, a schismatic or heretic, if they want to repent and come back to the Church, would not be re-baptized (as this is impossible) but would simply renounce their errors and go to confession.

    Compare this with an atheist or freemason who has never been baptized.  Their conversion would take much longer, as they'd have to learn the faith and take catechism classes.

    So, when you say that heresy or schism "expels one from the Church" that is true (from a spiritual standpoint) but not true from a membership standpoint (since a baptized person is still a member of the Church, in a sense).  If one could truly get expelled from the Church, then re-baptism would be required.
    Well said.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #41 on: September 11, 2018, 12:32:05 PM »
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  • So, when you say that heresy or schism "expels one from the Church" that is true (from a spiritual standpoint) but not true from a membership standpoint (since a baptized person is still a member of the Church, in a sense).  If one could truly get expelled from the Church, then re-baptism would be required.

    Well, if this is true, and the baptized will always remain a member of the Church no matter what, then guess what? there is no heresy in Vatican II Council. The baptized heretic Protestant and baptized schismatic Orthodox still enjoy membership and communion in the Church, although "imperfect".
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #42 on: September 11, 2018, 02:54:22 PM »
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  • Cantarella,
    Can a person be baptized more than once?  Is a heretic re-baptized on his deathbed before repenting of his sins?  No and no.

    This has nothing to do with V2.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #43 on: September 11, 2018, 03:13:56 PM »
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  • Cantarella,

    This has nothing to do with V2.

    It does, because if heretics and schismatics do not lose membership in the Church by virtue of their baptismal character alone, then it follows that they can be included in the Church via an imperfect communion which is what VII says in LG about such "Christian" communities.

    Furthermore, it would mean that a manifest heretic could still be the Pope and the Head of the Catholic Church, even if in actuality, he is not even a member of it but is outside, which is contrary to Catholic teaching.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Privationism in Fr. Wathen's book
    « Reply #44 on: September 11, 2018, 04:04:38 PM »
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  • Quote
    It does, because if heretics and schismatics do not lose membership in the Church by virtue of their baptismal character alone, then it follows that they can be included in the Church via an imperfect communion which is what VII says in LG about such "Christian" communities.
    Can a person be re-baptized?  Just answer the question.
    If no, then you have to admit that there are different meanings and understandings to the word "membership".

    Also, the term "imperfect communion" is a modernistic novelty.  So who cares if heretics are "imperfectly" united to the Church?  They're still going to hell.  "Imperfect communion" is theologically meaningless and only used because V2 wants to support their humanistic agenda and a one-world religion.  

    Quote
    Furthermore, it would mean that a manifest heretic could still be the Pope and the Head of the Catholic Church, even if in actuality, he is not even a member of it but is outside, which is contrary to Catholic teaching.
    There is a distinction between belief and the indelible mark.  No matter what a man does in this life, he cannot erase the indelible mark, and if he goes to hell, the devils will torment him much more than an unbaptized person because a baptized person was given the ultimate grace of the Faith, which he rejected.

    One who is a heretic censures himself by denying one or more truths of the Faith.  Spiritually, he is no longer a member in the sense that he does not believe.  But, his soul is still marked with membership and the only thing standing in the way of being a member again is his confession and abjuration of error.

    Manifest heresy requires a rebuke from the Church, so the Church would declare one loses their office after the rebuke. 

    It's a complex question.