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Author Topic: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church  (Read 10506 times)

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Offline cassini

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Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
« Reply #60 on: September 01, 2025, 10:44:38 AM »
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  • First of all, thank you Cassini for some concrete evidence highlighting Newman's error. There is quite a lot of information in this article - 'Galileo, Revelation and the Educated man' (see link that Cassini provides) so I intend to unpack this with some comments and questions:

    Wrote Newman: "For that past controversy and its issue have taught me beyond all mistake, that men of the greatest theological knowledge may firmly believe that scientific conclusions are contrary to the Word of God, when they are not so, and pronounce that to be heresy which is truth.  It has taught me... that Scripture is not inspired to convey mere secular knowledge, whether about the heaven or the earth, or the race of man; and that I need not fear for Revelation whatever truths may be brought to light by means of observation and experience out of the world of phenomena which environ us.

    Comment
    : Newman seemed to be a loyal son of the Church. For
    he believed as the Church believed at his time, that they had made a terrible mistake by judging Galileo so harshly for views, which, a century later, had been 
    "proven" by science to be possible. In fact this entire essay is a defense of the Church for its sudden U-turn :

    "
    Galileo on his knees abjured the heresy that the earth moved...And then at length, in our own day, the doctrine, which was the subject of it, was found to be so harmless in a religious point of view, that the books advocating it were taken off the Index, and the prohibition to print and publish the like was withdrawn."

    "Such an alarm never can occur again, for the very reason that it has occurred once.
    Commen
    t: Newman seems to be saying here that the Galileo case generated so much controversy, that the Church has learnt its lesson and is now more objective towards new physical "evidence".

    "And I seem to myself here to be speaking under the protection and sanction of the Sacred Congregation of the Index itself, which has since the time of Galileo prescribed to itself a line of action, indication of its fearlessness of any results which may happen to religion from physical sciences."

    Comment: 'Fearlessness' towards new theories, for Newman considers them non threatening to scripture which, he states, is written for salvation purposes and not for understanding natural science:


    "Thus investigation, which Catholics would have suppressed as dangerous, when, in spite of them, it has had its course, results in conclusions favorable to their cause.  How little then need we fear the free exercise of reason!  How injurious is the suspicion entertained of it by religious men!  How true it is that nature and revelation are nothing but two separate communications from the same infinite Truth!

    Newman then concludes that:
    "If she [the Catholic Church] affirms, as I do not think she will affirm, that everything was made and finished in a moment though Scripture seems to say otherwise, and though science seems to prove otherwise, I affirm it too, and with an inward and sincere assent.  And, as her word is to be believed, so her command is to be obeyed.  I am as willing then to be silenced on doctrinal matters which are not of faith as to be taught in matters which are.  It would be nothing else than a great gain to be rid of the anxiety which haunts a person circuмstanced as I am, lest, by keeping silence on points as that on which I have begun to speak, I should perchance be hiding my talent in a napkin.  I should welcome the authority which by its decision allowed me to turn my mind to subjects more congenial to it."
    Yes 

    Question: Cassini, would you agree that Newman was a product of his times? That the Church itself held these views? And that he was merely defending/articulating
    the actions of the Church. I am not arguing that what he defended was true, only that what he was defending was also held to be true by even the reigning Pope - Pope Pius IX.

    Question: Can this view constitute as heresy given it has not been defined clearly by the Church? There is no doubt that he is suggesting error and I concede to the evidence that he was teaching error. I also concede that he was a victim of Modernism as were the Popes who orchestrated the U-turn.

    Question: What were Pope Pius X's view on the heliocentric theory?


    Yes Boru, Newman was a product of his time. Once pope Pius VII completed the U-turn on a defined and declared Biblical meaning in 1820, Catholicism as a 100% supernatural religion ended and all the heresies defined and declared in the past were abandoned and forgotten. Every pope after Pius VII had to go along with his U-turn. We are told by the Church Satan is the Father of lies. How true, in that he used the old Pythagorean heresies to be believed on the basis that science had proven them true. Thus Satan sprung a trap no pope or clergyman could get out of  after Pius VII's U-turn..

    That said, in 1820 there were members of the Holy office who rejected this U-turn but they were ignored. But worse, as science itself admitted from 1870 no such proof for the 1820 U-turn ever existed. Einstein himself admitted this, yet no pope responded to this, even though the Church had an Academy of Science at the time. Satan had fooled churchmen into having to defend their U-turn position rather than admitting the real error was in 1820, not 1616 and 1633.

     Now given a farmer like myself and many others, Protestants and Catholics, since 1870, were able to figure out the truth, it is beyond belief not one churchman of note could do the same. What we do know is that the U-turn destroyed traditional Faith in the supernatural Creation by God and introduced modernism that led to millions of souls losing the faith and emptying churches as we witness today.

    In my synthesis I have had to write:
    'That said, this synthesis also recognises that those Catholics, including ourselves in the past, who, having been taught these things throughout our ‘education’ in school and university, Catholic or not, accepted heliocentrism, natural evolution and even the possibility of aliens based on a belief these things were proven by science. So such personal heresies, as ruled by the Catholic Church, are ‘material,’ involving most Catholics today as we know. The Catholic Church makes a distinction between material and formal heresy. Material heresy means in effect ‘holding erroneous doctrines through no fault of their own’ due to inculpable ignorance so ‘is neither a crime nor a sin’ since the individual made the error in good faith. But once the truth has been explained to them, and Biblical heliocentrism is still promoted, the heresy cannot be considered material  any longer.

    It is not for me to judge anyone, just record the history why and how Satan fooled all to destroy the Catholic faith for millions and hope it improves the faith for others.

    My research found revered clergy like Newman and Sheen went along with the delusion, Three popes supported Galileo's exegesis in the three encyclicals on Biblical meaning, including Pope Pius X who promoted Jesuits who 'proved the Earth spins' to be leaders in the Vatican Observatory. 


    Offline Boru

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #61 on: September 01, 2025, 06:01:50 PM »
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  • Yes Boru, Newman was a product of his time. Once pope Pius VII completed the U-turn on a defined and declared Biblical meaning in 1820, Catholicism as a 100% supernatural religion ended and all the heresies defined and declared in the past were abandoned and forgotten. Every pope after Pius VII had to go along with his U-turn. We are told by the Church Satan is the Father of lies. How true, in that he used the old Pythagorean heresies to be believed on the basis that science had proven them true. Thus Satan sprung a trap no pope or clergyman could get out of  after Pius VII's U-turn........................

    etc.

    Thanks for your reply.


    In 1741, the chief adviser to the Holy Office, the Jesuit Fr Pietro Lazza, put pressure on Pope Benedict XIV (1740-1758) to admit the Church was wrong.

    And then in 1820, this  U-turn hinges on the advice of Friar Benedetto Olivieri (1769-1845).
    Interesting. The year Olivieri died, John Henry Newman entered the fold. Certainly a lot of chess pieces were being moved during this time-frame.

    Anyway, I've started studying your book and it's really made me take a step back and re-consider my understanding of church history and even the part John Henry Newman had to play. There's been a lot to digest in the past few days. I sincerely hope that Mat183 and this Hugh Owen from the Kolbe Centre can help get your book to a wider audience. I checked out the website and immediately felt "at home" so they seem good people to deal with.




    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #62 on: September 01, 2025, 06:51:54 PM »
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  • Yes, the infiltration in the Church goes back to the 1700s (see French Revolution).  Also, Pius IX was imprisoned in the Vatican in the 1800s.  The 19th century was NOT a time of peace or widespread orthodoxy.  St Pius X was *miraculously* elected pope in the early 1900s, else we would’ve had V2 in 1903.  As many Freemasons admitted, Pope St Pius X pushed back the Modernists’ plans by “50 years” (ie 1960).

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #63 on: September 02, 2025, 08:01:34 PM »
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  • I have provided numerous forms of evidence to prove that all those lies and slanders are false.  I have researched into his life and read some of his letters. I have read what both St. Pius X and Pope Leo XIII had to say about him and the great esteem they had for him. Do not sit there and tell me I'm indoctrinated and obstinate when you have done nothing but spew these lies and slander simply because the Church you refuse to recognise, gives him the honour he deserves. That is the only reason why you spew. You don't even care if these lies are true or not. For you it's a weapon against the Church you have come to hate.
    It's not the Catholic way Pax.
    Thanks to Cassini who approached the subject in a careful and charitable way, I have taken the time to further my research in the teachings of John Henry Newman. What I am discovering has left me stunned. To that I would have added confused if Cassini had not already prepared me on how Modernism had concretely entered the Catholic Church in 1820 and effected, one way or another, even the best of men such as Pope Pius X who spoke out against it.

    In saying this, I owe the posters Pax and Ladislaus an apology. They were right and I was wrong; there is indeed something very suspect about the teachings of John Henry Newman. And as such, I now ask, how is it possible that Pope Leo XIII made him a cardinal - especially as the conservative English clergy of his day - almost to a man
    - treated him with suspicion?

    For those that wonder at my change of position, I give you the following link to an E-book written by a Richard Sartino:
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_028br_Newman.htm

     It's only 36 pages long, and some of it a little technical, however the information provided makes it clear that John Henry Newman did indeed have an agenda which he subtly and carefully planted into Catholics circles such as the Catholic periodical 'the Rambler'.

     Writes Sartino: "Unquestionably Newman was an exceptionally talented writer, capable of analyzing conceptions, terms, and fine shades of meaning that few have since been able to match; yet underneath and behind his writing there is an ambiguity, which many have noticed, that gives the impression that Newman was more clever than straightforward."

    When I read those lines my mind flashed back to something Newman had written:"If she [the Catholic Church] affirms, as I do not think she will affirm, that everything was made and finished in a moment, though Scripture seems to say otherwise, and though science seems to prove otherwise, I affirm it too, and with an inward and sincere assent." Sincere assent? This does not read as 'sincere assent'. This reads as a clever way of stating 'the Church cannot affirm this because scripture and science prove otherwise' while appearing to 'submit to the judgement of authority'. Speaking from both sides of his mouth.

    Once I realised his method, I began to see what Monsignor Talbot and Cardinal Mannings saw.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #64 on: September 02, 2025, 08:13:31 PM »
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  • No apology needed ... I'm glad you took the time to look.

    Pope Leo XIII, for his good points, was in fact a bit of a liberal, and he did make some mistakes that green-lighted the early Modernists that St. Pius X had to deal very forcefully with, especially in the Encyclical Providentissimus Deus.  Now, the Encyclical itself is quite sound ... but unfortunately he phrased a few of the more theologically nuanced sections in such a way that the Modernists could easily twist them and convince people that the passages mean what they wanted them to mean.  Pius IX had to deal with the same thing, where during his own lifetime word got back to him about how some liberals were interpreting his Encyclicals, and he was incensed by it.  St. Pius X, in approving of Newman, was basing his little not entirely on an apologetic work by a bishop who was friendly to Newman.

    I've read that there was a huge amount of pressure on the Vatican to embrace Newman because there was some thought that they would be instrumental in kicking off a great wave of conversions from Anglicanism and restore the Church in England.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #65 on: September 02, 2025, 08:17:01 PM »
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  • Once I realised his method, I began to see what Monsignor Talbot and Cardinal Mannings saw.


    Yes, it's the same method that St. Pius X later called out in his condemnations of the Modernists.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #66 on: September 02, 2025, 10:29:35 PM »
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  • Thanks to Cassini who approached the subject in a careful and charitable way, I have taken the time to further my research in the teachings of John Henry Newman. What I am discovering has left me stunned. To that I would have added confused if Cassini had not already prepared me on how Modernism had concretely entered the Catholic Church in 1820 and effected, one way or another, even the best of men such as Pope Pius X who spoke out against it.

    In saying this, I owe the posters Pax and Ladislaus an apology. They were right and I was wrong; there is indeed something very suspect about the teachings of John Henry Newman. And as such, I now ask, how is it possible that Pope Leo XIII made him a cardinal - especially as the conservative English clergy of his day - almost to a man
    - treated him with suspicion?

    For those that wonder at my change of position, I give you the following link to an E-book written by a Richard Sartino:
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_028br_Newman.htm

     It's only 36 pages long, and some of it a little technical, however the information provided makes it clear that John Henry Newman did indeed have an agenda which he subtly and carefully planted into Catholics circles such as the Catholic periodical 'the Rambler'.

     Writes Sartino: "Unquestionably Newman was an exceptionally talented writer, capable of analyzing conceptions, terms, and fine shades of meaning that few have since been able to match; yet underneath and behind his writing there is an ambiguity, which many have noticed, that gives the impression that Newman was more clever than straightforward."

    When I read those lines my mind flashed back to something Newman had written:"If she [the Catholic Church] affirms, as I do not think she will affirm, that everything was made and finished in a moment, though Scripture seems to say otherwise, and though science seems to prove otherwise, I affirm it too, and with an inward and sincere assent." Sincere assent? This does not read as 'sincere assent'. This reads as a clever way of stating 'the Church cannot affirm this because scripture and science prove otherwise' while appearing to 'submit to the judgement of authority'. Speaking from both sides of his mouth.

    Once I realised his method, I began to see what Monsignor Talbot and Cardinal Mannings saw.

    I rejoice you have found the Truth!  Now you're part of the team to help warn others of the dangers of Newman.