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Author Topic: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church  (Read 213017 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2025, 03:20:55 PM »
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    • I've read that the fact of this are disputed, but I have always found it harsh to exclude someone from canonization just because they simply carried through on a survival instinct, and possibly even half-consciously.  So if I threw some potential saint in the ocean and he desperately tried to stay afloat, he'd be disqualified also?  What should he have done, just give up and allow himself to sink like a rock to the bottom in complete submission?  If ѕυιcιdє is wrong, it's also a passive form of ѕυιcιdє to not even make an attempt to stay alive.  I mean ... unless he scrawled blasphemies on the lid of the coffin, I don't see that as any impediment to his canonization.

    Now, he did have many enemies in life, since he rubbed quite a few people the wrong way in that many would have "resembled the remarks" made in the Imitation.  Of course, whatever the reason, God's Providence prevented the canonization, and that perhaps for a legitimate reason, i.e. that for some reason he did not save his soul (God forbid) or may still be in Purgatory ... or some such.

    Of course, canonizations are not primarily for the honor of the saints per se, but only per accidens, and in order to inspire and edify the faithful.  Their gloy consists entirely in the divinely recognized assessment of their merits, so on one level, if he's in the glory of Heaven now, he could hardly care less whether he's canonized or not, as I'm sure that the countless souls who had benefitted from what he wrote redound to his glory far more than would any esteem he received from the faithful.  That's actually quite consistent with the spirituality in The Imitation.

    I do know that I owe him a debt of gratitude, since when I first receive the gift of Catholic faith around the age of 10, I was greatly edified and motivated by his writing.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #31 on: August 28, 2025, 03:29:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 28, 2025, 10:40:16 AM
    No, they did not think it super creepy. Only you on here think it super creepy. Which I find super creepy.

    The Vatican decided to intern Newman elsewhere because of the gαy lobby putting so much emphasis on it. It was merely to quieten this gαy propaganda that you are falling for.

    You just make up whatever sounds good to you, right?  Yes they did it to "quieten[sic]" the gαy propaganda ... but I guess they simply miscalculated since it had precisely the OPPOSITE effect.  Quietest that the gαys would have remained would have been had you done nothing, but by taking this action you were guaranteed to raise their ire.  So if you removed Newman from the tomb, what? ... people simply wouldn't notice or remember that they had been interred together and the gαys would just say, "ah, yes, I guess I mis-remembered, and Newman wasn't buried with Ambrose after all".

    I think that sometimes you need to read your posts out loud to yourself before clicking the "Post" button and making a fool of yourself.

    They removed Newman precisely beause of and due to the beatification / canonization process in order to quiet criticism of his canonizaton from the ANTI-gαy crowd, not from the gαys, realizing that it's creepiness would in fact give them a good deal of ammunition.  Duh.  :facepalm:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #32 on: August 28, 2025, 03:43:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 28, 2025, 03:16:10 PM
    There is a lot of hate and lies being directed at this great man and I would like to know where it is coming from.

    If you have concrete proof that Newman taught error as a Catholic, then please post it. Otherwise you are merely slandering this poor man's name and passing on slander.

    Don't believe what the haters say - research yourself. I am convinced that we have anti-Catholic agitators on this forum so be careful.

    For those who believe Pope Pius made a mistake in approving John Henry Newman's work please read the following article - link provided.

    https://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2025/08/pius-x-vindicates-john-henry-newman.html

    Yeah, just because you say so.  Newman's Modernist writings are well docuмented, citations where he exhorted those hostile to the dogmatic definition of papal infallibility to keep quiet and bide their time ... until the Church better understood the dogma, i.e. understood it the way they did, as being a meaningless formula.  That's a direct expression of Modernism that the Church's understanding of dogma can change over time to mean something than what it was originally intended to mean.  There are ample citations of this.

    During his lifetime, SIX BISHOPS from the British Isles also denounced Newman to Rome for heresy, and the eminently orthodox Cardinal Manning couldn't stand Newman due to his heterodox teaching, having said once that he counted no fewer than TEN HERESIES in the works of Newman.

    As for the Pius X approbation of Newman, he was clearly mistaken.  He absolutely did not have the time to study Newman's incredibl prolific volume of work.  In that "vindication", which does nothing of the sort, St. Pius X had merely read a DEFENSE of Newman written by someone who in having set out to defend him, did not objectively consider the real evidence.  Newman, like all the Modernists, as St. Pius X himself taught, will say something orthodox on one page, and then heterodox on the next ... making it incredibly simple for someone who want to vindicate him to do so by selective citation of the orthodox portions, something which St. Pius X clearly did not have the time to personally investigate.  That "article" does nothing to dispel the notion that St. Pius X was mistaken, but simply recounts the opinon of St. Pius X.

    But just because you're simply carrying water for the Conciliar sect, simply because you have decided that Newman was a "great man" and that the (well docuмented and clear evidence regarding his Modernism) were irrational hate and lies (evidently for no reason) ... that settles it.

    You really are embarrassing and thoroughly discrediting yourself.
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #33 on: August 28, 2025, 04:07:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 28, 2025, 03:43:27 PM
    Yeah, just because you say so.  Newman's Modernist writings are well docuмented, citations where he exhorted those hostile to the dogmatic definition of papal infallibility to keep quiet and bide their time ... until the Church better understood the dogma, i.e. understood it the way they did, as being a meaningless formula.  That's a direct expression of Modernism that the Church's understanding of dogma can change over time to mean something than what it was originally intended to mean.  There are ample citations of this.

    * Cite the citations laddie.

    During his lifetime, several bishops from the British Isles also denounced Newman to Rome for heresy, and the eminently orthodox Cardinal Manning couldn't stand Newman due to his heterodox teaching.

    * So you keep saying. Evidence?

    As for the Pius X approbation of Newman, he was clearly mistaken.  He absolutely did not have the time to study Newman's incredibl prolific volume of work.  In that "vindication", which does nothing of the sort, St. Pius X had merely read a DEFENSE of Newman written by someone who in having set out to defend him, did not objectively consider the real evidence.  Newman, like all the Modernists, as St. Pius X himself taught, will say something orthodox on one page, and then heterodox on the next ... making it incredibly simple for someone who want to vindicate him to do so by selective citation of the orthodox portions, something which St. Pius X clearly did not have the time to personally investigate.  That "article" does nothing to dispel the notion that St. Pius X was mistaken, but simply recounts the opinon of St. Pius X.

    * Re-read what St. Pope Pius X said: "The writings of Cardinal Newman, far from being in disagreement with Our Encyclical Letter Pascendi, are very much in harmony with it...Regarding the large number of books of great importance and influence which he wrote as a Catholic, it is hardly necessary to exonerate them from any connection with this present heresy...We therefore congratulate you for having, through your knowledge of all his writings, brilliantly vindicated the memory of this eminently upright and wise man from injustice...


    Those who were accustomed to abusing his name and deceiving the ignorant should henceforth cease doing so. Would that they should follow Newman the author faithfully by studying his book...let them understand his pure and whole principles, his lessons and inspiration which they contain. They will learn many excellent things from such a great teacher..."


    But just because you're simply carrying water for the Conciliar sect, simply because you have decided that Newman was a "great man" and that the (well docuмented and clear evidence regarding his Modernism) were irrational hate and lies (evidently for no reason) ... that settles it.

    * St. Pius X thought him a great man. I guess I'm in good company. Besides, thus far, I have not seen anything that contradicts St. Pius X's evaluation.

    You really are embarrassing and thoroughly discrediting yourself.

    * I love you too xx
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #34 on: August 28, 2025, 04:12:01 PM »
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    • Newman is credited by everyone as coming up with the idea called “development of doctrine”.  Many, many people have called this idea quasi-heretical, if not outright error.  Go google it.  This is nothing new.  Newman paved the way for V2.

    He was also scandalously against V1 and infallibility.  And this was  another red flag against him.  

    Go do some research before you ask “for sources” for something that happened over 100 yrs ago.  It’s no secret.  
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #35 on: August 28, 2025, 05:19:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 28, 2025, 04:12:01 PM
    Newman is credited by everyone as coming up with the idea called “development of doctrine”.  Many, many people have called this idea quasi-heretical, if not outright error.  Go google it.  This is nothing new.  Newman paved the way for V2.

    * The term was introduced in Newman's 1845 book An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. This was written while he was an Anglican.  IF there are any errors, this may be the reason.

    Newman did not pave the way for Vatican II. St. Pius X stated he was no modernist.


    He was also scandalously against V1 and infallibility.  And this was  another red flag against him. 

    * Vatican I was convoked by Pope Pius IX in 1869. How was he 'scandalously' against Vatican I? If there was any real problem then why didn't it bother Pope Pius X who would have known about it. St. Thomas Aquinas questioned the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, which states that Mary was conceived without original sin. He had difficulty reconciling this belief with his understanding of original sin and redemption. Do you have a red flag against him too?


    *Newman simply wrote a PRIVATE letter to his Ordinary of Birmingham, Bishop Ullathorne, expressing his worry that such a declaration will create difficulties among fellow priests and clergy in Protestant England. Writes Newman "Where we are all at rest, and have no doubts, and at least, practically, not to say doctrinally, hold the Holy Father to be infallible... a great difficulty is to be created...As to myself personally, please God, I do not expect any trial at all, but I cannot help suffering with the various souls that are suffering. I look with anxiety at the prospect of having to defend decisions which may not be difficult to my private judgement, but may be most difficult to defend logically and in the face of historical facts ...think of the score of Pontifical scandals in the history of eighteen centuries..."

    Newman was NOT denying Papal infallibility. He was merely worried on how it would effect English clergy especially the Anglicans who were on the verge of converting.  This was part of the foreseen calamity he was talking about.



    Go do some research before you ask “for sources” for something that happened over 100 yrs ago.  It’s no secret.
     
    * The onus is on you. I'm not the one slandering Newman's name without evidence.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #36 on: August 28, 2025, 07:09:58 PM »
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    • :facepalm:  Newman pushed development of doctrine before and AFTER his conversion.  

    Due to his Anglican heresies, after his conversion, he should’ve been laicized.  

    Also, Pope St Pius X was one of a few who were orthodox in all of Rome.  He was utterly surrounded by modernists.  The whole argument that “Well, Pius X didn’t do anything so it must’ve been ok.”  :facepalm:  He was outnumbered and outmanned.  He could only do so much. 
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #37 on: August 29, 2025, 06:38:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 28, 2025, 07:09:58 PM
    :facepalm:  Newman pushed development of doctrine before and AFTER his conversion. 

    Due to his Anglican heresies, after his conversion, he should’ve been laicized. 

    Also, Pope St Pius X was one of a few who were orthodox in all of Rome.  He was utterly surrounded by modernists.  The whole argument that “Well, Pius X didn’t do anything so it must’ve been ok.”  :facepalm:  He was outnumbered and outmanned.  He could only do so much.
    I see your method of arguing is "repeat a lie long enough and forcefully enough in order to make it stick".  You also are the very definition of Protestantism; You always ignore the counter-evidence and latch on to an incidental that could be twisted to suit your narrative. Such as your rebuttal which is totally nonsensical. St. Pope Pius X wrote a long letter exonerating Newman from the LIES and SLANDEROUS ACCUSATIONS of his time - the only reaction to Newman's work and actions - and you say it was because this saintly Pope was outnumbered by Modernists. So what are to believe of any of St. Pius X's decisions or conclusions then?

    If you are going post slander, at least have the decency to post some sort of evidence for your claim.
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #38 on: August 29, 2025, 07:03:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 28, 2025, 04:12:01 PM
    Newman is credited by everyone as coming up with the idea called “development of doctrine”.  Many, many people have called this idea quasi-heretical, if not outright error.  Go google it.  This is nothing new.  Newman paved the way for V2.

    Pax, you and your ilk are regurgitating LIES and SLANDER about Cardinal Newman. Read the following:

    An Irish bishop defended Newman from the false charges that he was a modernist and a liberal, and that his theory of development was no different than modernist “evolution of dogma” which Pope St. Pius X had condemned.

    The docuмent’s title is:     Cardinal Newman and the Encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis, and it was written by Edward Thomas O’Dwyer, Bishop of Limerick (1908). Here is an excerpt:
    Quote
    (3) With regard to the theory of the development of Christian Doctrine, two questions entirely distinct from one another have to be considered in relation to Newman: (a) is his theory admissible according to the principles of Catholic Theology, and (b) is it covered, or touched in any wise, by the condemnations of the recent Encyclical.
    Quote
    The first of these questions I leave on one side now, venturing merely to express, with all submission, my personal opinion, little as it is worth, that in its broad outlines it is thoroughly sound and orthodox, and most serviceable for the interpretation of the facts of the history of dogma. 
    Quote
    As to the second, I cannot see how there can be room for doubt. Newman’s whole doctrine was not only different from that of the Modernists, but so contrary to it in essence and fundamental principle, that I cannot conceive how, by any implication, it could be involved in their condemnation. Nothing less than an explicit statement by the supreme authority of the Holy See would convince me to the contrary. I see no common ground in both systems. The word development is the only thing which they hold in common. They do not mean the same thing by Christianity, by dogma, by religion, by Church. They do not start from the same first principles, and consequently they are as separate as the poles.
    Pope St. Pius X himself – in the same year: 1908 – wrote a letter to Bishop O’Dwyer, thoroughly approving of his docuмent in defense of Newman:St. Pope Pius X wrote:
    "The writings of Cardinal Newman, far from being in disagreement with Our Encyclical Letter Pascendi, are very much in harmony with it...Regarding the large number of books of great importance and influence which he wrote as a Catholic, it is hardly necessary to exonerate them from any connection with this present heresy...We therefore congratulate you for having, through your knowledge of all his writings, brilliantly vindicated the memory of this eminently upright and wise man from injustice...

    Moreover: After the death of Pope Pius IX in 1878, the papacy of Pope Leo XIII began. Pope Leo admired Newman’s fierce religious orthodoxy and appointed him as a cardinal in 1879. The news that he was to be a Cardinal came as a conclusive vindication of his orthodoxy and loyalty to the Catholic Church. He himself declared ‘the cloud is lifted for ever’. After receiving his cardinal’s hat in Rome, Newman described how, ‘for thirty, forty, fifty years I have resisted to the best of my powers the spirit of liberalism in religion. Never did Holy Church need champions against it more than now.’ Pope Leo was so fond of Newman and his desire to stay true to the faith that he referred to him as, ‘Il mio cardinale’, meaning ‘my cardinal’.


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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #39 on: August 29, 2025, 08:13:49 AM »
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    • Your naive as to how a big corporation, like the vatican operates.  You seem to innocently think that a pope can know what everyone is doing, like a father over a household.  But a father is in charge of maybe 10 people (with a big family), while a pope is in charge of 1,000.  A pope relies on advisors, administrators, etc to do his job.  He can't and doesn't know all the details.

    None of what St Pius X or Leo XIII did in regards to Newman was infallible or inerrant.  Both were surrounded with bad men/wolves in sheeps clothing.  Newman was a modernist.  Newman had many friends.  St Pius X and Leo XIII were duped and lied to.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #40 on: August 29, 2025, 10:43:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 28, 2025, 10:40:16 AM
    No, they did not think it super creepy. Only you on here think it super creepy. Which I find super creepy.

    The Vatican decided to intern Newman elsewhere because of the gαy lobby putting so much emphasis on it. It was merely to quieten this gαy propaganda that you are falling for.

    It’s very clear…  
    Newman was a jew-Brit queer.

    Newman’s male lovers
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #41 on: August 29, 2025, 01:16:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on August 29, 2025, 10:43:56 AM
    It’s very clear… 
    Newman was a jew-Brit queer.

    It's very clear - you are slanderer with bad intent. Even the way you have written what you wrote     shows an anti-Catholic spirit. God help you.

    Cardinal Newman had an extremely close friend who worked as his secretary for around 30 years. They converted together, trained together, and they defended the faith together. Through his darkest hours leading up to his conversion, Newman said it was Ambrose St. John, who like a guardian angel, helped him through it. 

    At the age of 15, Newman said he had felt called to make an vow of celibacy. As an Anglican he was allowed to marry however decided not to as a sacrifice for Christ. Prof. Ian Ker, an eminent Newman scholar and Oxford University Professor, tells us that twenty five years after this youthful vow, Newman wrote: "The thoughts keep pressing on me, while I write this, what am I writing it for?..who would take an interest in it?...this is the sort of interest which a wife takes and none but she...I willingly give up the possession of the sympathy...Yet, not the less do I feel the need of it."

    I have read Cardinal Newman's letter detailing the lead up to his friend's death. It is beautiful. I cannot fathom how anyone can read such filth into such a pure and saintly friendship. You have to be so removed from what it is to love. That's the only explanation.

    When I have more time, I am going to write an analysis of this letter - to show just how sick and deceitful these detractors are.

    Meanwhile, I'll leave you with an idea of the inner workings of this great man's soul. The following is a prayer he wrote: "I protest once for all, before men and Angels, that sin shall no more have dominion over me. This Lent I make myself God’s own for ever. The salvation of my soul shall be my first concern. With the aid of His grace I will create in me a deep hatred and sorrow for my past sins. I will try hard to detest sin, as much as I have ever loved it. Into God’s hands I put myself, not by halves, but unreservedly. I promise Thee, O Lord, with the help of Thy grace, to keep out of the way of temptation, to avoid all occasions of sin, to turn at once from the voice of the Evil One, to be regular in my prayers, so to die to sin that Thou mayest not have died for me on the Cross in vain." (Ref: Meditations and Devotions)

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #42 on: August 29, 2025, 03:07:01 PM »
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    • For everyone out there (besides the indoctrinated-obstinant-Boru):

    If the V2 church, the Indults and the Modernists all are happy that John Newman is a saint, then stop and ask yourself, "Why is that?".
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #43 on: August 29, 2025, 05:43:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 29, 2025, 03:07:01 PM
    For everyone out there (besides the indoctrinated-obstinant-Boru):

    If the V2 church, the Indults and the Modernists all are happy that John Newman is a saint, then stop and ask yourself, "Why is that?".
    Because they see what St. Pius X saw: a great defender of the faith. The very fact that the Church, despite her infiltration, has raised this great man to the office of  'Doctor of the Church' shows that tradition is indeed reclaiming the reigns. It's a symbol of hope. And an Englishman at that :)

    I have provided numerous forms of evidence to prove that all those lies and slanders are false.  I have researched into his life and read some of his letters. I have read what both St. Pius X and Pope Leo XIII had to say about him and the great esteem they had for him. Do not sit there and tell me I'm indoctrinated and obstinate when you have done nothing but spew these lies and slander simply because the Church you refuse to recognise, gives him the honour he deserves. That is the only reason why you spew. You don't even care if these lies are true or not. For you it's a weapon against the Church you have come to hate.
    It's not the Catholic way Pax.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Prevost to declare John Henry Newman a Doctor of the Conciliar Church
    « Reply #44 on: August 29, 2025, 08:15:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 29, 2025, 05:43:16 PM
    Because they see what St. Pius X saw
    :laugh1::laugh2::laugh1:  Since when do the Modernists, V2-ers and Indulters see things the way St Pius X does?  He he were pope today, all 3 of those groups would be excommunicated immediately!!
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