Author Topic: Predestantion of the Elect and BOD  (Read 793 times)

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Offline bowler

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Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
« on: December 18, 2013, 12:32:29 PM »
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  • Predestination of God's Elect and the Many Theories of "Baptism of Desire"


    "Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circumstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circumstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]


    In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation;along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circumstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul.


    The idea of salvation outside the Church is opposed to the Doctrine of Predestination. This Doctrine means that from all eternity God has known who were His own. It is for the salvation of these, His Elect, that Providence has directed, does direct, and will always direct, the affairs of men and the events of history. Nothing, absolutely nothing, that happens, has not been taken into account by the infinite God, and woven into that tapestry in which is written the history of the salvation of His saints. Central in this providential overlordship is the Church itself, which is the sacred implement which God devised for the rescuing of His beloved ones from the damnation decreed for those who would not. (Mt. 23:37).

    The Doctrine of Divine Election means that only certain individuals will be saved.  They will be saved primarily because, in the inscrutable omniscience of God, only certain individuals out of all the human family will respond to the grace of salvation. In essence, this doctrine refers to what in terms of human understanding and vision, is before and after, the past, the present, and the future, but what in God is certain knowledge and unpreventable fact, divine action and human response.

    Calvin and others have made the mistake of believing that these words mean that predestination excludes human choice and dispenses from true virtue. Catholic doctrine explains simply that the foreknowledge of God precedes the giving of grace. It means, further, that, since without grace there can be no merit, and without merit no salvation, those who will be saved must be foreknown as saved by God, if they are to receive the graces necessary for salvation.

    Those who say there is salvation outside the Church (no matter how they say it) do not comprehend that those who are in the Church have been brought into it by the Father, through Christ the Savior, in fulfillment of His eternal design to save them. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children. Nothing prevents His using the skies for his billboard, and the clouds for lettering, or the rolling thunder for the proclamation of His word. (Indeed, for believers, He does just this: "The heavens show forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands." I Ps. 18: 11. But for atheists the heavens have no message at all.) If poverty were the reason some do not believe, he could load them down with diamonds; if youth were the reason, He could make sure they grew to a hoary old age. If it were merely the want of information, put a library on their doorstep, or a dozen missionaries in their front room. Were it for a want of brains, he could give every man an I.Q. of three hundred: it would cost Him nothing.

    The idea that someone died before he was able to receive Baptism, suggests that God was unable to control events, so as to give the person time to enter the Church. If time made any difference, God could and would keep any person on earth a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand years.

    Thus, what is the meaning of this election? That from all eternity God has ordered the events of history, so that His Elect might have the grace of salvation. And how do they know of this election? By the fact that they are in the Church, through no deservingness of their own? They know of no reason why God should bestow this grace, the knowledge of the truth, and the willingness and power to believe it, upon them, while others, who seem more worthy, go without it. As regards His Elect, not only has God determined to bestow necessary grace, but also, all His actions in the world must be seen as part of His salvific plan. In a word, nothing that He does is unrelated to the salvation of His Beloved Sheep. Human history, apart from the glory of Holy Church, and the salvation of the Elect, and the punishment of the wicked, has little importance for almighty God. Yet, all these purposes are only a part of the manifestation of His glory.

    Those who speak of it have the problem of reconciling the mystery of Predestination with the idea of "baptism of desire." From all eternity, almighty God has known the fate of every soul. In His Providence, He has arranged for the entrance into the Church of certain millions of persons, and has seen to it that they receive the grace of faith, the Sacrament of Baptism, the grace of repentance, the forgiveness of their sins, and all the other requisites of salvation. According to The Attenuators, in the case of "non Catholic saints," and of those who died before they might receive Baptism, God was simply unable to see to these necessaries. Untoward and unforeseen circumstances arose which prevented His providing these other millions with the means of salvation. Theirs is a story of supreme irony, that although the God of omniscience and omnipotence mastered the history of all nations and the course of every life, angelic and human, in the case of certain ones, His timing was off by just a few days, or hours, or minutes. It was His earlier intention to make sure that they received Baptism of water; He had it all planned out; but alas! on the particular day of their demise, His schedule was so full, that He simply could not get to them; for which reason, in that it was His fault, He is bound to provide an alternative instrumentality: "baptism of desire" is his substitute for the real thing!

    The Diluters of the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation do not perceive the Pelagian tenor of their position, that some may be saved outside the Church through nothing but their good will. It is exactly because this is impossible  and, more important, offensive to God, that the notion must be
     rejected. We say impossible, because no man can save himself. The fact that every man must receive Baptism and thus enter the Church means that he is dependent upon God to make it possible for him to receive the Sacrament, and further, through this Sacrament, it is Christ Who acts to purge the sinner of his sins, and ingraft him into His Mystical Body. No individual can do this by himself. He is dependent upon another to pour the water and say the words, and he is dependent upon God to provide this minister, and to make the sacramental sign effective of grace. It is thus so that none may attribute his salvation to his own doing.
     
    Pride is the chief vice of man, as it was and is of the demons of Hell. It is pride more than any other fault that blinds men to the truth, that obstructs faith, and hardens their hearts to conversion from sin.

    The Doctrine of Predestination is that almighty God from all eternity both knew and determined who would be saved, that is, who would allow Him to save them. He would be the cause of their salvation, and, as there is no power that can even faintly obstruct or withstand Him, there is no power which can prevent His saving whom He wishes, except, of course, the man himself.


    Offline bowler

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 12:51:28 PM »
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  • Lover of Truth, the only poster left on CI who keeps insisting on initiating  threads on the subject of so-called baptism of desire, believes that people can be saved despite the fact that they have no explicit desire to be baptized (therefore, it can't properly be called baptism of desire, but he still insists on doing so!), nor explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor believe that Jesus Christ is God, nor believe in the Trinity.

    Now tell me,
    - after all the warnings from God in scripture, that to be saved we must believe in Christ,
    -and John 3:5 which says:   Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    -and all the dogmatic decrees on EENS
    - and Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the
    Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that
    baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for
    salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”
    - the Athanasian Creed - that says that to be saved one has to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation (that Christ is God)


    After all of that and much much more, after all of that, we find out from LOV that people actually can be saved who have no explicit desire to be baptized, nor belief in Jesus Christ and the Trinity.

    Well, then, God must have predestined all of his words to be meaningless, and his Church only a type of a threat just to scare us Catholics.



    Offline Cantarella

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 02:51:51 PM »
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  • Excellent read
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 12:51:13 PM »
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  • Terrific.  Who wrote this?

    In summary, and I've repeated this many times, these PREMISES behind BoD are basically heretical.

    1) that someone can be prevented from Sacramental Baptism due to "impossibility" and "unforeseen" circumstances

    2) that it would be unfair or unjust of God to not save someone who didn't make it to Sacramental Baptism while desiring to do so

    3) that sincerity and good will can save (extended BoD) = Pelagianism

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 12:52:47 PM »
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  • LoT doesn't really live up to his name, does he?


    Offline Matto

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 12:54:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    3) that sincerity and good will can save (extended BoD) = Pelagianism

    From my observations, nearly everyone believes your point number 3.
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 12:59:15 PM »
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  • About 5 in a half million times I have shared what the Catholic Church teaches.

    Desire and or inculpable ignorance (sincerity of will) alone cannot save a man.

    But you act is if this is what those who avoid the Feeneyite error teach.  We add that the desire first must be effective where one actually tries to do what he believes God wants, AND, small detail here, must have supernatural faith and charity and die in a state of sanctifying grace.  Hello?

    So if you are going to represent what those who avoid the Feeneyite error teach can you please present it fully and accurately?

    Thanks.

     :cheers:
    Carry on.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Matto

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      • Julian Moore
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    « Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 01:02:09 PM »
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  • :cheers:
    It seems to me that believing in BOD requires either ignorance or intellectual dishonesty.  :popcorn:
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..


    Offline bowler

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 02:17:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Desire and or inculpable ignorance (sincerity of will) alone cannot save a man...  We add that the desire first must be effective where one actually tries to do what he believes God wants, AND, small detail here, must have supernatural faith and charity and die in a state of sanctifying grace.  
    So if you are going to represent what those who avoid the Feeneyite error teach can you please present it fully and accurately?

    Thanks.



    For the hundreth time: Your "system" requires no need to have any explicit desire to be baptized, nor desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. It is opposed to ALL of tradition, the  Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Scripture, Councils, dogmatic decrees, the Athanasian Creed....

    One has to reject ALL of tradition to believe what you just explained in your own words.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 02:23:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Desire and or inculpable ignorance (sincerity of will) alone cannot save a man...  We add that the desire first must be effective where one actually tries to do what he believes God wants, AND, small detail here, must have supernatural faith and charity and die in a state of sanctifying grace.  
    So if you are going to represent what those who avoid the Feeneyite error teach can you please present it fully and accurately?

    Thanks.



    For the hundreth time: Your "system" requires no need to have any explicit desire to be baptized, nor desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. It is opposed to ALL of tradition, the  Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Scripture, Councils, dogmatic decrees, the Athanasian Creed....

    One has to reject ALL of tradition to believe what you just explained in your own words.


    Incorrect.

    The debate is whether man can be saved apart from water.  

    Do you affirm or deny?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline bowler

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 02:27:47 PM »
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  • LOV, either you are ignorant (mentally handicapped), intellectually dishonest, or in total denial.

    You totally reject St. Thomas's teaching on this exact subject, and yet you quote him to defend your belief!

    This is mind boggling to me, have you no shame?



    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #11 on: December 19, 2013, 02:34:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    LOV, either you are ignorant (mentally handicapped), intellectually dishonest, or in total denial.

    You totally reject St. Thomas's teaching on this exact subject, and yet you quote him to defend your belief!

    This is mind boggling to me, have you no shame?



    You keep saying the same thing despite evidence to the contrary which puts you in the position you accuse me of.  

    It comes down to whether man can be saved apart from water.  Do you affirm or deny?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Predestantion of the Elect and BOD
    « Reply #12 on: December 20, 2013, 12:43:50 PM »
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  • Bump.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


     

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