Author Topic: Praying for the damned increases their suffering? (Read 2319 times)

Telling · « **Reply #75 on:** **Today** at 10:22:14 AM »

Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 09:37:47 AM

He actually doesn't. If he is truly attending an indult (if you have a sense of humor, I first typed insult) mass, then he is following the Popes, he believes has authority. He is probably in a better position than you, because he is consistent and doesn't follow his own lead.

The problem I have is that I am not sure the body and blood of Jesus is there in his mass, because all the changes were so drastic and we don't have a current authority we can trust.

Amen. To most of this.

Regarding the last part, Eucharistic Miracles confirm the validity of the New Mass. The issue in the NOM is not validity. It is what Theologians call "integrity", stripping away much of the other parts of the Holy Mass, other than the bare essentials necessary for validity. So the Mass will still be valid, as Indult Trad Priest Fr. Ripperger teaches, but the Mass will merit fewer graces as far as the extrinsic effects of the Mass are concerned. Fr. Ripperger explains this in detail in his article, the Merit of a Mass.

An excerpt here: "However, when we consider the rituals themselves, it is possible to arrive at which is more meritorious.

The new rite is “streamlined” in the sense that those who wrote it sought to simplify the ritual. This resulted in less pomp, so in this respect we may say the old rite is more meritorious than the new. We have mentioned in a prior article that the old rite excels the newer rituals with regard to the virtues."

https://menaschrist.wordpress.com/the-merit-of-a-mass/

Telling · « **Reply #76 on:** **Today** at 10:26:36 AM »

Quote from: AnthonyPadua on Today at 04:53:30 AM

If a bunch of theologians say one things and a bunch of Popes say the opposite who do we obey? We obey the Popes, as they have more authority. Amazing how you do exactly what you accuse me and the Dimonds of, being a lay Pope. You falsely conjure the notion that just because God can miraculously convert a non-catholic before their death that means we can pray or say mass for them without any external reason to believe they had a conversion.

Lol. So let's see. On one hand, we have (1) ALL PRE V2 Theologians. (2) SAINT Therese (3) SAINT Padre Pio, and others, and on the other hand, we have (1) Peter Dimond's private interpretation of Magisterial teachings. Lol, it's not a difficult choice for me, for Gray, and for most other Roman Catholics here. Only a small number of Dimond-disciples insist their heroes are inerrant or infallible in this fallible private judgment interpretation of theirs.

Also, as I mentioned above, a Trad Pope wrote - "enlightened at the last minute by a hidden benefit of the Merciful God". Peter Dimond cited this recently, but misunderstood it. I'll see if I can find it. It will help underline the point. Also, if you admit "because God can miraculously convert a non-catholic before their death" why exactly does that prevent you from indeed concluding "that means we can pray or say mass for them". Why would you want to hinder prayers or private Masses for a possibly saved Soul? It's a lack of charity to NOT want to pray for souls to be saved, and as Maccabees teaches, "it is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins". (2 Macc 12:46).

Telling · « **Reply #77 on:** **Today** at 10:41:56 AM »

Yup, just as I said, the Trad Pope who said such a thing was Pope Gregory XVI. He wrote it to a certain Bishop Peter. He clearly says this is only an exterior judgment of ecclesiastical authority, and the Catholic Church is well aware that she could well have been moved to repentance by a hidden or more secret benefit of God. "Nor does it matter at all to this if the same woman could have been illuminated to repentance in the final moments of life by the hidden mercy of God's grace. For these more secret mysteries of divine grace do not in the least pertain to the external judgement of ecclesiastical authority" https://www.wmreview.org/p/gregory-xvi-officium The Dimonds cited this, yet they completely deny this possibility. Even the more qualified position Anthony Padua holds (that it is possible, but that allegedly doesn't mean we can't pray for it - why? why can't we pray for the possible) is NOT the position Dimond holds, which is that it is IMPOSSIBLE. Dimond should show up himself on this forum and defend his position with good reasons.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #78 on:** **Today** at 03:37:26 PM »

Quote from: Telling on Today at 10:41:56 AM

Yup, just as I said, the Trad Pope who said such a thing was Pope Gregory XVI. He wrote it to a certain Bishop Peter. He clearly says this is only an exterior judgment of ecclesiastical authority, and the Catholic Church is well aware that she could well have been moved to repentance by a hidden or more secret benefit of God. "Nor does it matter at all to this if the same woman could have been illuminated to repentance in the final moments of life by the hidden mercy of God's grace. For these more secret mysteries of divine grace do not in the least pertain to the external judgement of ecclesiastical authority" https://www.wmreview.org/p/gregory-xvi-officium The Dimonds cited this, yet they completely deny this possibility. Even the more qualified position Anthony Padua holds (that it is possible, but that allegedly doesn't mean we can't pray for it - why? why can't we pray for the possible) is NOT the position Dimond holds, which is that it is IMPOSSIBLE. Dimond should show up himself on this forum and defend his position with good reasons.

That's idiotic. No, the Dimonds do not deny the slim chance (St. Alphonsus puts it at one in a million where someone does not die as they had lived) that there may have been an illumination that was not known to others. You competely warp the entire argument by strawmanning it. Prayer for departed non-Catholics is banned because it leads inexorably to attitudes of religious indifferentism, i.e. precisely the borderline-if-not-entirely heretical notions you spew you regularly here.

But that's what you have to do, set up false strawmen to knock down. I've regularly heard the Dimond Brothers talk about how they most certainly acknowledge the theoretical possibility that some baptized heretic might receive some interior illumination shortly before death ... as unlikely as that would be.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #79 on:** **Today** at 03:53:20 PM »

Quote from: Telling on Today at 10:26:36 AM

Also, if you admit "because God can miraculously convert a non-catholic before their death" why exactly does that prevent you from indeed concluding "that means we can pray or say mass for them". Why would you want to hinder prayers or private Masses for a possibly saved Soul? It's a lack of charity to NOT want to pray for souls to be saved ...

That's clearly explained, o tarded one ... but you evidently filter it out. Both the Dimond Brothers and Pope Gregory XVI (and the other Gregories) explained that one cannot pray for them because doing so undermines belief in the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church, and you are case and point, a veritable posterchild for proving their point. Now, the TRUE lack of charity comes in when you spread heresy and undermine faith in Catholic dogma by giving the impression to people that one might be saved outside the Church. If any were saved by some last-second illumination of grace, then ... they'll be saved, and perhaps their spending longer in Purgatory would be just punishment allowed by God for their having lived outside the Church for most of their lives. And, as has been pointed out, when people pray for souls in Purgatory who have already been liberated, God can and does apply those prayers to other souls, as He sees fit. But it's a far greater lack of charity to contribute to the loss of faith and to the loss of souls by publicly denying Catholic dogma as you do ... your sanctimonious and cynical / insincere gaslighting about "lack of charity" notwithstanding.

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Author Topic: Praying for the damned increases their suffering? (Read 2319 times)

Telling

Re: Praying for the damned increases their suffering?

Telling

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Telling

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Ladislaus

Re: Praying for the damned increases their suffering?

Ladislaus

Re: Praying for the damned increases their suffering?