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Author Topic: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics  (Read 3346 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
« on: March 15, 2023, 01:03:18 PM »
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  • Very solid video from those who shall not be mentioned.  I used to be more open to offering prayers in private for departed non-Catholics, but the papal teachings cited here are pretty conclusive.  I still believe that one could pray for them "to have converted" before their deaths, as that does no harm to Catholic dogma, since it's clear in the manner of prayer that one believes that they could not have been saved without such a conversion.  Recall how the "Latin Mass Society" in England even dared to offer a Mass for the repose of the soul of Elizabeth (an illegitimate monarch based on the decree of Pope St. Pius V).



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #1 on: March 15, 2023, 01:35:49 PM »
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  • Ah, I see ... quickly downthumbed by some heretic.  Papal teaching presented in the video is very clear.


    Offline rosarytrad

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    • St. Anthony of Padua, pray for us.
    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #2 on: March 15, 2023, 01:53:10 PM »
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  • I watched this the other night and also think it's a great video. Am I wrong in thinking that this video almost bridges the gap between supposed "feeneyism" and BOB/BOD?

    My dear sweet grandmother died, by external appearances, as a protestant when I was 14 years old. The Jєωs stumble over Christ, but when I first began my conversion my grandmother(the only woman/person in my life who has ever loved me in any unconditional manner) having died outside the Church was mine. I have prayed a few times that she may have converted somehow moments before her death. But I stopped saying those kind of prayers a long time ago. It was more of just a well intentioned comment to God, only cause I care for her deeply and it's sad to imagine her in hell. But I didn't make the rules. Maybe that's cold but I have come to terms with it.
    The mercies of the Lord I will sing for ever. - Ps. 88:2a

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #3 on: March 15, 2023, 02:01:00 PM »
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  • Very solid video from those who shall not be mentioned.  I used to be more open to offering prayers in private for departed non-Catholics, but the papal teachings cited here are pretty conclusive.  I still believe that one could pray for them "to have converted" before their deaths, as that does no harm to Catholic dogma, since it's clear in the manner of prayer that one believes that they could not have been saved without such a conversion. Recall how the "Latin Mass Society" in England even dared to offer a Mass for the repose of the soul of Elizabeth (an illegitimate monarch based on the decree of Pope St. Pius V).

    I wish they would have addressed this.  I believe this as well.

    Where would a priest's offering of prayers for a deceased person when saying mass fit in?  Would it depend on what those prayers were....like if he were praying for their conversion prior to death?

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #4 on: March 15, 2023, 02:06:17 PM »
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  • I watched this the other night and also think it's a great video. Am I wrong in thinking that this video almost bridges the gap between supposed "feeneyism" and BOB/BOD?

    My dear sweet grandmother died, by external appearances, as a protestant when I was 14 years old. The Jєωs stumble over Christ, but when I first began my conversion my grandmother(the only woman/person in my life who has ever loved me in any unconditional manner) having died outside the Church was mine. I have prayed a few times that she may have converted somehow moments before her death. But I stopped saying those kind of prayers a long time ago. It was more of just a well intentioned comment to God, only cause I care for her deeply and it's sad to imagine her in hell. But I didn't make the rules. Maybe that's cold but I have come to terms with it.

    Padre Pio stated one time also, and it's absolutely certain, that God can hear prayers said in the future, at the time that a person is dying.  There's no doubt about that, as God is not bound by time in any way.  Whether or not He DOES hear and accept such prayers is a matter for speculation, but there's no doubt that He CAN.

    But this idea out there that Catholics should publicly say they're praying for [some deceased heretic], this is clearly contrary to the teaching of Pope Gregory XVI, and to see that so prevalent among Traditional Catholics, well, it demonstrates how deep the rot was before Vatican II already.

    Indeed, this video per se doesn't really deal with BoB / BoD, as we're speaking even about validly-baptized individuals who died outside the Church.  It has to do with Pope Gregory's denunciation of praying for departed-Catholics because such practices erode faith in Catholic dogma.  We can always HOPE that someone converted in their last moments through some grace or light received from God, some action that transpired between God and the soul and we won't know about until we leave this world ourselves, but Pope Gregory dismisses that this possibility (which everyone grants) justifies praying for the repose of non-Catholics.


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #5 on: March 15, 2023, 02:08:48 PM »
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  • Sad that she was a major problem with global genocide and take over.  She condoned lockdowns and the jab.  Her husband also was creepy and for global genocide. 

    I pray for her family’s conversion from
    Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ/Hollywood, perversion.

    I pray that People of England repent for their sins of mortal sex sin, ecuмenism etc. and return to Jesus Christ.


    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #6 on: March 15, 2023, 02:10:48 PM »
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  • I wish they would have addressed this.  I believe this as well.

    Where would a priest's offering of prayers for a deceased person when saying mass fit in?  Would it depend on what those prayers were....like if he were praying for their conversion prior to death?

    I think they don't really address it because there's no direct Catholic teaching on the subject.  It's speculative.  We know with absolutely certainty that God is not bound or constrained by time, and that He CAN hear such prayers.  Whether or not He accepts them is speculation.

    But mentioning them formally in any rite of the Church is clearly prohibited, and Pope Gregory also advises that the faithful not be advised to pray even privately for the "repose" of the souls of non-Catholics due to the harm that this causes to the Catholic faith.

    I would say that a priest couldn't offer Mass per se for conversion (in the past) of some deceased non-Catholic, but there's nothing to prevent him from offering a Mass, say, for the intentions of Our Blessed Mother, or the intentions of Our Lord, and then asking Our Lady and Our Lord to hear such prayers.  That would be less "official" than directly offering a Mass for such intention.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #7 on: March 15, 2023, 02:12:00 PM »
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  • I pray for her family’s conversion from
    Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ/Hollywood, perversion.

    I pray that People of England repent for their sins of mortal sex sin, ecuмenism etc. and return to Jesus Christ.

    Indeed, that one "Trad" priest declared from the pulpit that Elizabeth had "lived a good life".  Seriously?  Does that man have the Catholic faith?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #8 on: March 15, 2023, 02:17:00 PM »
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  • Indeed, that one "Trad" priest declared from the pulpit that Elizabeth had "lived a good life".  Seriously?  Does that man have the Catholic faith?
    He probably has a number of friends and family members who aren't Catholic and also live "a good life".  I truly believe that most people who go down this route do so because they can't bear the thought that their loved one(s) didn't make it.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #9 on: March 15, 2023, 02:31:41 PM »
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  • He probably has a number of friends and family members who aren't Catholic and also live "a good life".  I truly believe that most people who go down this route do so because they can't bear the thought that their loved one(s) didn't make it.

    That or just emotionally in general the thought of so many being lost, especially people who seem like "good" people.  It's not easy (requires grace, a free gift) to see the world with supernatural eyes, so to speak, distinguishing between natural virtue and the free supernatural gifts.  It's really the error of Pelagius repackaged.  I can do great acts of kidness, but they have no supernatural merit by themselves, as only Our Lord, being God, can merit that way, or Our Lord dewlling within us.

    There's also an unfortunate view of Hell that's become prevalent, where it's a monolithic cauldron of fire, and naturally virtuous people are being tossed around in the flames right next to the most wicked serial killers, mass murderers, war criminals, and child rapists.  But that's entirely untrue and one of the Church's EENS definitions even points out that each individual suffers according to the measure of his evils.  For some, this suffering could be mild, as their natural virtue may have outweighed the vices or weaknesses they had.

    So this view of Hell leads to the idea that these "good people", Protestants who lived next door perhaps, are burning in the cauldron right next to Joe Stalin, leads people to recoil against the thought that they might be there.  But what if their view of Hell is wrong?

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #10 on: March 15, 2023, 03:06:39 PM »
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  • Private pain for the souls of unconverted loved ones is understandable. Yet those Catholics who not only publicly prayed for QE2 but also criticized those who didn't has to be, at best, some sort of residual Stockholm Syndrome in majority-Protestant countries. And then, for jaw-dropping what in the world was this person thinking, there's this bizarrely gleeful Notre Dame U. faculty member: "Why I Had a Mass Offered for Janis Joplin." But wait, there's more: "Why You Should Give Mass Cards to Protestants." In the first of those two articles, the author declares,

    Quote
    Was Joplin a Catholic? Was she religious at all? I had no idea — and I couldn't care less. I didn’t even glance at Wikipedia to find out. What did it matter? Grace is grace is grace, and Janis Joplin could benefit from a healthy dose like anybody else on the path to heaven.

    NuChurch catechesis and RCIA must really be that bad. Yes, there are better ways to use one's time than to rubberneck at distraction. Still, whenever I see one more headline like these, I begin to wonder whether there's a secret weekly backroom coordinating committee meeting.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #11 on: March 15, 2023, 03:17:08 PM »
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  • There's also an unfortunate view of Hell that's become prevalent, where it's a monolithic cauldron of fire, and naturally virtuous people are being tossed around in the flames right next to the most wicked serial killers, mass murderers, war criminals, and child rapists.  But that's entirely untrue and one of the Church's EENS definitions even points out that each individual suffers according to the measure of his evils.  For some, this suffering could be mild, as their natural virtue may have outweighed the vices or weaknesses they had.

    So this view of Hell leads to the idea that these "good people", Protestants who lived next door perhaps, are burning in the cauldron right next to Joe Stalin, leads people to recoil against the thought that they might be there.  But what if their view of Hell is wrong?
    .

    Jesus said hell was "eternal fire". I'm not aware of any kind of fire that is not extremely painful.

    Yes, people suffer unequal levels of torment based on their amount of guilt, but I've never seen hell referred to by any other terms besides things like "eternal torment", "eternal fire", or equivalent terms. I've never seen any statement on hell in any Catholic writer that supports your point here.

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #12 on: March 15, 2023, 03:33:31 PM »
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  • My mother (RIP) was not only a non-Catholic but she was a New Age practitioner of dark arts.  We did the 5 Saturdays and I even hid green scapulars in her home but I am certain she died an apostate.  She had a particular hostility towards the sacramental priesthood and hierarchy.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #13 on: March 15, 2023, 11:51:52 PM »
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  • It is important to pray privately even for those who appear to have died outside the Church. Indeed, their salvation may depend upon it, since God being outside of time can 'anticipate' our prayers for their salvation. 

    There are some, like the Dimonds, who repeatedly misrepresent Magisterial teaching. It has a semblance of truth, but often with a little twist imposing their own 'dogmatic' interpretation.

    I recommend this article by the Fatima Centre:

    Conclusion

    May the souls of all the faithful departed rest in peace. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. But God alone knows the state of a soul at death. Thus, in our charity and love for all men – since we desire all to be saved (cf. 1 Tim 2:4) – we continue to pour forth private prayers for the conversion and salvation and mitigation of Purgatory for everyone, even those who in our eyes died outside the Church but who may have made a perfect Act of Contrition or who became Catholic by divine intervention right before the moment of death.


    May a Catholic Pray for the Soul of a Deceased Non-Catholic? | The Fatima Center

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Praying for Deceased Non-Catholics
    « Reply #14 on: March 16, 2023, 12:09:46 AM »
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  • My mother (RIP) was not only a non-Catholic but she was a New Age practitioner of dark arts.  We did the 5 Saturdays and I even hid green scapulars in her home but I am certain she died an apostate.  She had a particular hostility towards the sacramental priesthood and hierarchy.
    Pray and sacrifice for your mother. Yes, as you say RIP (a prayer that qualifies me as a heretic for some). It may well be that God made her salvation contingent upon the prayers you would offer.

    You will note that with these papal pronouncements, if you change the emphasis and take the whole context, they do not forbid a Catholic to pray privately for a deceased non-Catholic.