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Offline stevusmagnus

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Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2010, 10:30:30 AM »
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  • Quote
    He first said they make it worse.  Now he says they're a first step to morality.  They can't be both.


    Please provide the quote and context where he said condoms make the problem worse and quote and context where he said they can be a first step to a moralization.

    Hopefully you'll then see the difference, but if not I'll try to explain it to you.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #16 on: December 23, 2010, 10:35:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Please provide the quote and context where he said condoms make the problem worse and quote and context where he said they can be a first step to a moralization.


    I've given up citing sources with you because you always ignore them or mischaracterize them.  Why quote something for you to then totally distort the meaning?

    Now if distributing those devices make the problem of AIDS worse, then the use of them cannot be a first step to responsibility.  

    The Pope, when asked about his previous remarks, effectively repudiated them.


    Offline Belloc

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #17 on: December 23, 2010, 10:38:15 AM »
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  • to late for most of the World that took confusing and ambigous statements of late and ran with it....this ads more confusion to fire.....again, B16 should have just zipped it on the condom thing of late, the Curia is none too savvy on PR.....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #18 on: December 23, 2010, 10:39:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    to late for most of the World that took confusing and ambigous statements of late and ran with it....this ads more confusion to fire.....again, B16 should have just zipped it on the condom thing of late, the Curia is none too savvy on PR.....


    It's very simple for the Pope - he should say that they should never be used in any circumstances.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #19 on: December 23, 2010, 10:47:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Please provide the quote and context where he said condoms make the problem worse and quote and context where he said they can be a first step to a moralization.


    I've given up citing sources with you because you always ignore them or mischaracterize them.  Why quote something for you to then totally distort the meaning?

    Now if distributing those devices make the problem of AIDS worse, then the use of them cannot be a first step to responsibility.  

    The Pope, when asked about his previous remarks, effectively repudiated them.


    The Modernist go to school to learn that technique, they think it makes them look smart, but it really makes them look like fools, or better; wolves in sheep clothing.  They won't admit the point if it stuck them in their rear.  

    Have a Merry Christmas all, even the Modernist that are here on this board in sheep clothing.  


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #20 on: December 23, 2010, 10:49:37 AM »
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  • You are mischarecterizing his words.

    I will find the quotes for you, as an act of charity...

    In his recent book he REAFFIRMS what he said in Africa..

    Quote
    Seewald: In Africa you stated that the Church’s traditional teaching has proven to be the only sure way to stop the spread of HIV. Critics, including critics from the Church’s own ranks, object that it is madness to forbid a high-risk population to use condoms...

    Pope: The media coverage completely ignored the rest of the trip to Africa on account of a single statement. Someone had asked me why the Catholic Church adopts an unrealistic and ineffective position on AIDs. At that point, I really felt that I was being provoked, because the Church does more than anyone else. And I stand by that claim. Because she is the only institution that assists people up close and concretely, with prevention, education, help, counsel, and accompaniment. And because she is second to none in treating so many AIDs victims, especially children with AIDs.


    The Pope then continues...

    Quote
    I had the chance to visit one of these wards and to speak with the patients. That was the real answer: The Church does more than anyone else, because she does not speak from the tribunal of the newspapers, but helps her brothers and sisters where they are actually suffering. In my remarks I was not making a general statement about the condom issue, but merely said, and this is what caused such great offense, that we cannot solve the problem by distributing condoms. Much more needs to be done. We must stand close to the people, we must guide and help them; and we must do this both before and after they contract the disease.

    As a matter of fact, you know, people can get condoms when they want them anyway. But this just goes to show that condoms alone do not resolve the question itself. More needs to happen. Meanwhile, the secular realm itself has developed the so-called ABC Theory: Abstinence – Be Faithful – Condom, where the condom is understood only as a last resort, when the other two points fail to work. This means that the sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalization of sexuality, which, after all, is precisely the dangerous source of the attitude of no longer seeing sexuality as the expression of love, but only a sort of drug that people administer to themselves. This is why the fight against the banalization of sexuality is also a part of the struggle to ensure that sexuality is treated as a positive value and to enable it to have a positive effect on the whole of man’s being.

    There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality.

    Seewald:Are you saying, then, that the Catholic Church is actually not opposed in principle to the use of condoms?

    Pope: She of course does not regard it as a real or moral solution, but, in this or that case, there can be nonetheless, in the intention of reducing the risk of infection, a first step in a movement toward a different way, a more human way, of living sexuality.




    He didn't say the use of condoms is "a first step to responsibility." At least get the quote right.

    In context, an objective reader can CLEARLY see the Pope AFFIRMS his earlier statement that condoms are NOT the answer.

    He is saying that THE INTENTION OF REDUCING INFECTION of another with a DEALY DISEASE...that forming that intention, in and of itself, in the mind of someone who previously was indifferent to potentially infecting and KILLING another human being COULD be a FIRST STEP in a MOVEMENT TOWARDS a more human way of living sexuality.

    This comment had NOTHING TO DO with the objective morality of using a condom. It had to do solely with interior disposition. Thus the Pope's comments are in no way contradictory.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #21 on: December 23, 2010, 10:50:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Belloc
    to late for most of the World that took confusing and ambigous statements of late and ran with it....this ads more confusion to fire.....again, B16 should have just zipped it on the condom thing of late, the Curia is none too savvy on PR.....


    I agree. That the remark and the entire interview was imprudent is granted.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #22 on: December 23, 2010, 11:42:56 AM »
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    that we cannot solve the problem by distributing condoms


    He is misquoting himself - he said before that they make the problem worse, now he says the use can be a first step towards more humane sexuality.

    It's impossible to reconcile those two remarks, or the actions one would take based on them.


    Offline Caminus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #23 on: December 23, 2010, 12:07:34 PM »
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  • You have a very annoying habit of misrepresenting peoples' words, forcing a tortured conclusion and then breaking away into lamentations of the evil they say and do.  There is a problem with the Pope's words, but you haven't yet detected it.    

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Vatican: No Change in Church teaching on immorality of condoms
    « Reply #24 on: December 23, 2010, 12:27:43 PM »
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  • He was not "misquoting" himself, he was paraphrasing for God's sake. Do you expect him to have a photographic memory?

    Here is what he said in March of '09 (if we can trust the BBC)

    Quote
    HIV/Aids was, he argued, "a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which can even increase the problem".


    So HIV cannot be overcome by the distribution of condoms which CAN even increase the problem.

    Pouring more money into the distribution of condoms can increase the problem of HIV because it sends the message that high risk behavior is "safe" as long as you use one. As we all know it doesn't protect against HIV 100%, plus people don't use them "properly", especially in the 3rd world. Yet this false security can INCREASE high risk behavior and thus exacerbate the problem.

    Again this is all discussion of objective exterior acts and practical discussion of HIV prevention/ exacerbation.

    The Pope's later comments to Seewald refer to an INTERIOR SUBJECTIVE INTENTION which may develop whereby it may dawn on a habitual sinner, the inkling that it is a good thing to protect another human being from infection.

    Of course, you are free to disagree with this opinion of the Pope since it is a private opinion. However it is not in contradiction to what he said before and nothing he said, as the CDF points out, changes the Catholic teaching on condom use.


     

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