Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Jim on January 31, 2012, 09:03:00 PM
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My dear friends,
I joined this forum several months ago because I came to embrace an extremely hardline SSPX/sedevacantist position. I've been wanting yo get several things off my chest for a while, and hear what fellow Catholics had to say.
I didn't grow up traditional, but thanks to the internet, my "position" on the crisis has been changing almost constantly. From Wanderer type, to FSSPer, to SSPXer, and now sede.
What at first kept me from calling myself a sedevacantist was the consequences of it. Very severe, horrifying consequences that I still don't want to deal with.
Anyways, after looking at the issue, it appears to me, a simple layman, that SVism is the answer. However, I am racked by scruples and very, very afraid.
The regular priest whose Mass I attend, who is 100% traditional and who helped me to practice my faith and change my life, was ordained in the New Rite by a bishop consecrated in the old rite. Before, I didn't worry, as only the "ut" was changed in the essential form. However, both Fr. Cekada and Mr. John Lane, both in different "camps" of sedevacantism, say that the removal of ut essentially makes his orders doubtful. If I am wrong here, please correct me.
That means I essentially do not have access to valid sacraments, have invaldily received hundreds of times, and have invalidly confessed hundreds of times.
Due to my own personal situation as well as being a weak and caring too much about human respect, what can I do? Tell my mother and the few people who care that we have to immediately stop attending that chapel, the we haven't received our Lord, and most importantly, everything you think the Church is really isn't, that BXVI et al aren't popes. I simply cannot do that, as I think it will destroy their faith.
The consequences of sedevacantism boggle my mind, anger me, and scare me, all at the same time. I have only gone to a valid Mass fewer than 20 times in my life, and have only validly confessed a fraction of the time. Obviously, my confirmation is invalid. This is NO JOKE to me.
If the people who say we cannot attend an una cuм Mass, valid orders or not, are correct, that means I haven't attended a licit Mass once my entire life. Imagine, not once. This truly scares me.
What should I do? I am going to a Mass that some say is essentially idolatry, due to "doubtful" orders as well as una cuм. I am highly likely to be in mortal sin, since I haven't validly confessed.
Occasionally, I am able to attend the Mass of a "regularized" priest who was earlier ordained sub conditione in the Duarte Costa line? Are those valid?
This whole situation is terrible for me. I find myself being angry at non-sedes for not being sedes, the situation being so "clear" to me, yet I myself am not 100% convinced that it is absolutely true, and it has taken me years to even consider sedevacantism.
Its terrible. Essentially one billion people are being duped, if the Novus Ordo is invalid, both rites of ordination are invalid, etc.
Everyone please pray for this poor wretch. I write this with tears in my eyes. Sunday night I had to cry myself to sleep.
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Jim, be assured of my prayers.
As to what you wrote, unfortunetly I am not exactly an expert on the Old and New Rites of Ordination (I don't even have access to a TLM). So I will let an experienced sedevacantist respond to that.
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Its really hard. Hard as a "mainstream" traditionalist anyway, to live.
My objections aren't really to the thesis itself, but to its consequences. I entrust myself to God's providence and mercy.
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Any attempt to address my concern, sedevacantist or sédeplenist Catholic, would be greatly appreciated. Especially the issue of the New Rite of Priestly Ordination, as this has to do directly with my salvation and soul.
The requisite form, clearly defined by Pius XII, regarding the ordination of the priest has been changed by one word in the Latin. One sentence, connected by ut has been changed to two sentences. There is no change in meaning. It is patently false to argue that there is any change in meaning (hence a change in substance) in the essential Latin form. The best that can be argued is that there is a disconnect which might allow for a lack of intention to creep in, but then the bad intention would have probably invalidated the ordination anyway, since the bishop would need to certainly not wish to ordain a true priest.
In the vernacular there may be problems, but some of these are also spurious, or at least mostly spurious concerns.
The Episcopal ordination is a separate matter and should be treated that way.
Is this a good argument for the New Rite's validity?
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Does a change from this:
Grant, we beseech thee, almighty Father,
to these Thy servants
the dignity of the priesthood:
renew the spirit of holiness within them,
that they may he hold from Thee, O God,
the second rank in Thy service and by the example of their behaviour afford a pattern of holy living.
to this:
Grant, we beseech thee, almighty Father,
to these Thy servants the dignity of the présbyterate:
renew the spirit of holiness within them,
may they hold from thee, O God,
the second rank in Thy service and by the example of their behaviour afford a pattern of holy living.
Keep in mind the ordaining bishop was undoubtedly validly consecrated in the old rite, and was a "conservative," so defect of intention should not be worried about.
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I am a sedevacantist. You CAN attend an Una cuм Mass that is said by a valid priest.
You are under no obligation to starve yourself from the sacraments!
Regarding confession, find a priest ordained before 68 and go to him for confession, it will then be valid if you have other doubts.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Where_to_Mass.php
Read ALL of this.
Attend a Byzantine Liturgy, the priests are valid. You will be Ok!
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I have been praying for you ever since you asked me; I was flattered to be asked!
Your range of emotions is very interesting to read, since it is similar yet different to what I went through. The anger at other people not seeing what to you is so clear -- for the most part -- seems to be something many of us pass through. When I messed up on NFP and implicit faith, that gave me humility and I saw how I could be mistaken, hopefully in good will, just like those who have taken the incorrect position in the crisis.
The New Rite of Ordination isn't what you have to worry about; it's the New Rite of Consecration. I believe the bishops consecrated in this New Rite are invalid; therefore the priests they consecrate are also invalid.
It is also interesting that you say explicitly that it's the consequences of the sede position that bother you the most. Most people won't admit that to themselves. Things have come so far and become so bad that, I do believe, many just can't accept just how severe the situation really is, or just how near the Church is to total defeat. But that is the chilling situation of the Apostasy.
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The New Rite of Ordination in my opinion is probably valid, but many disagree. What does this concern, your baptism? Even a layman can baptize. Just talk to a sede priest about whatever your problem is; learn from my mistakes, don't come here and ask laymen.
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I am a sedevacantist. You CAN attend an Una cuм Mass that is said by a valid priest.
You are under no obligation to starve yourself from the sacraments!
Regarding confession, find a priest ordained before 68 and go to him for confession, it will then be valid if you have other doubts.
http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Where_to_Mass.php
Read ALL of this.
Attend a Byzantine Liturgy, the priests are valid. You will be Ok!
There is one Russian Catholic liturgy in the area. However, I have heard from two different people that the priests (Russian rite Jesuits) are ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. Not to mention if their orders are valid, etc.
Most important to my issue is human respect and my own personal weakness. I depend on my mother for a ride to Mass. What am I going to tell here (she's not really a trad) "Guess what, mom? The last 5 popes aren't really popes, and we haven't had a true pope since before you were born. Fr. X, who has been so good to us, who said a Requiem Mass for Dad and Auntie, might not even be a real priest, so we need to drive either 1 hour to the nearest SSPX chapel, or the nearest sedevacantist chapel. By the way, we both have to make a general confession, meaning that we need to confess all our sins since we may have invalidly confessed."
Its already hard enough getting to the traditional Mass. I fear if I say the above to anyone, they may lose the Faith completely.
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I have been praying for you ever since you asked me; I was flattered to be asked!
Your range of emotions is very interesting to read, since it is similar yet different to what I went through. The anger at other people not seeing what to you is so clear -- for the most part -- seems to be something many of us pass through. When I messed up on NFP and implicit faith, that gave me humility and I saw how I could be mistaken, hopefully in good will, just like those who have taken the incorrect position in the crisis.
The New Rite of Ordination isn't what you have to worry about; it's the New Rite of Consecration. I believe the bishops consecrated in this New Rite are invalid; therefore the priests they consecrate are also invalid.
It is also interesting that you say explicitly that it's the consequences of the sede position that bother you the most. Most people won't admit that to themselves. Things have come so far and become so bad that, I do believe, many just can't accept just how severe the situation really is, or just how near the Church is to total defeat. But that is the chilling situation of the Apostasy.
Thank you for your prayers.
My anger at others is so unbelievable ironic and hypocritical for me.
The consequences of being a sede are what detered me for so long, and still do. Yet, when I was a "mainstream" trad, the consquences already made it harder: attending a TLM, schooling, friendship and searching for a spouse issues, vocational issues. Sedevacantism just limits this much more.
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The New Rite of Ordination in my opinion is probably valid, but many disagree. What does this concern, your baptism? Even a layman can baptize. Just talk to a sede priest about whatever your problem is; learn from my mistakes, don't come here and ask laymen.
I have been scrupulous about my baptism. Perhaps he had a defected intention, or said the wrong form, or poured the water incorrectly. My family isn't trad, so they didn't pay attention to those things. With a lack of any positive doubt, I shouldn't worry about it. I do worry about my confirmation, and would like to be conditionally confirmed.
My worries are thusly:
The only traditional priest in the area was ordained in the new rite. The bishop, a conservative, was himself consecrated undoubtedly in the old rite. Some sedes say that the removal of ut, or the use of présbyterate instead of priesthood invalidate the rite. This has dire consequences, since:
1. I do not have access to a valid Mass.
2. The same for valid confession, and I may have possibly confessed invalidly. Meaning I may be in a state of mortal sin.
This, combined with scruples and a lack of traditional friends or family, and me basically not having an interior life, is disastrous.
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I went through the same thing about my baptism, the devil puts that there.
I remember asking a priest once why someone would become a Mason, and he said "Steady work. " For some reason, at the time, I thought this might be some kind of admission, lol. It seemed to make perfect sense to him, while I thought he should say something like "There is nothing worth selling your soul over!" But he was seeing it from another perspective, obviously.
Then I was thinking about other things during the baptism and I didn't hear if he said the right words. I began worrying "What if he said Spiritum Sancto instead of Spiritus Sancti?" I suffered over this for a long time, now it's totally gone.
If your baptism is invalid you still will have a good chance for BoD. I know that doesn't sound reassuring, but of course no one can GUARANTEE that you will have BoD. I realize why you are nervous, even though my hunch from what you've said is that it's valid. Just ask a sede priest about a conditional baptism.
You seem to have your head on straight, that is why the devil will turn your sense of righteousness against you. He has nothing else to use. When someone sees the truth clearly and is escaping his clutches, he has to swoop in and try to make them too paranoid and letter-of-the-law. Just relax, God has you in hand.
Your confession is valid as long as you believe you're confessing to a real priest; then he would have what they call a "colored title." At CMRI my friend was told he didn't have to re-confess what he had confessed in the Novus. But if you have positive doubt the priest is invalid, yeah, you shouldn't go to his Mass. It sounds like in this case you do not have positive doubt.
Do you have a CMRI priest you can talk to on the phone? I can get a number for you.
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I went through the same thing about my baptism, the devil puts that there.
I remember asking a priest once why someone would become a Mason, and he said "Steady work. " For some reason, at the time, I thought this might be some kind of admission, lol. It seemed to make perfect sense to him, while I thought he should say something like "There is nothing worth selling your soul over!" But he was seeing it from another perspective, obviously.
Then I was thinking about other things during the baptism and I didn't hear if he said the right words. I began worrying "What if he said Spiritum Sancto instead of Spiritus Sancti?" I suffered over this for a long time, now it's totally gone.
If your baptism is invalid you still will have a good chance for BoD. I know that doesn't sound reassuring, but of course no one can GUARANTEE that you will have BoD. I realize why you are nervous, even though my hunch from what you've said is that it's valid. Just ask a sede priest about a conditional baptism.
You seem to have your head on straight, that is why the devil will turn your sense of righteousness against you. He has nothing else to use. When someone sees the truth clearly and is escaping his clutches, he has to swoop in and try to make them too paranoid and letter-of-the-law. Just relax, God has you in hand.
Your confession is valid as long as you believe you're confessing to a real priest; then he would have what they call a "colored title." At CMRI my friend was told he didn't have to re-confess what he had confessed in the Novus. But if you have positive doubt the priest is invalid, yeah, you shouldn't go to his Mass. It sounds like in this case you do not have positive doubt.
Do you have a CMRI priest you can talk to on the phone? I can get a number for you.
So since I thought the priest was validly ordained but now have doubts about his orders, my previous confessions are valid? That's a huge relief. I am going to have to "attend" his Mass, but won't receive or go to him for confession. It all depends on the validity of the New Rite of Priestly Ordination, however.
I should call a CMRI priest. A priest of the Nine is around here, maybe I'll call him. Or Fr. Radecki.
Too bad I don't live in SoCal. Then we could talk directly.
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Maybe when the Bullet train is finished. I could get to LA in under 3 hours. This would also be great for priests on circuit in CA, as they could go up and down the state in a breeze. That won't be til 2030, though, and I'll be in my 40s :laugh1:
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I would try Father Gerard, the priest who baptized me. Father Dominic is extremely busy. But he would certainly be able to advise you.
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OK. When and how is the best way to contact him?
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Fr. Zapp is near there.
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Jim,
Hang in there. You need to take a deep breath and stop panicking. I know it may be hard but it's necessary. I don't know the answer to much of your questions, but I do know that God has permitted the mess the world is in to take place, and we are in it and have to save our souls in it. You need to have hope.
At some point God will say "enough", and He will exalt His Holy Church before the faces of her enemies, and all will be forced to admit that God has been, and is with her. It will also become clear to all that her sacred virginity has always remained intact, and that she has never defected.
The poison of heresy will be extinguished, and all blasphemous tongues will be silenced, but the truth of God remains forever firm.
I don't feel competent to answer all these questions you put forth, and especially not on a public forum, I just wanted to tell you to trust in God. He will not abandon those who sincerely seek His help. And please pray the Rosary, but you probably already do that.
If you need to talk, feel free to pm.
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Sorry, missed your message last night. I'll PM you.
I would just call at any time except on Sunday when he's saying Mass ;) He has been assigned to London, Ontario now, you can see the times on their webpage. I think with his soothing mildness he is right for you at this time. Father Dominic has a huge congregation, saying three Masses on Sunday, and seems to be constantly on the go.
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Thanks Exile and Raoul.
I am out of "panic mode," so to speak. I am honestly trying to live the Faith with a sensus Catholicus.
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Jim, sorry for not reading this sooner. I just wanted you to know that God doesn't expect us to work miracles. You must do the best you can with what you've got. "As for the invalid sacraments we both went through, I always thought that was the devil's dirtiest trick and that is what made me angry for a long time. Even years after finding the Church I worried about making up lost time in the confessional. In despair I went to confession and threw the book at myself. There just is no way to cover all the ground after so many many years.
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John Lane and Fr. Cekada have as much authority to judge rites of the Church as your postman.
You need to apply the same skepticism and cynicism you have for the NO to their arguments. It is undeniable that they have a vested interest in saying NO rites aren't valid as they want to funnel people towards Sede chapels exclusively. Preferably their Sede chapel. It is Protestantism all over again.
The dilemma you find yourself in should be a red flag that somewhere along the way there is a flaw in your reasoning. Even the Society admits NO rites are valid. Michael Davies wrote a great peice as to why the ordination and consecration rites are still valid.
I think you sell Our Lord short. He left us an indefectible, visible, hierarchical Church that will last to the end of time. This Church must have valid rites when they are approved for use by the universal Church.
Read "The Great Facade". You'll see that this Crisis is a facade of optional novelties binding on no one. There have been severe crises in the Church before and Catholics did not become Sedes, except the Protestants who rejected the Papacy and the Pope.
Your priest is a valid and holy priest. Keep going there. Consult him on these issues. Don't isolate yourself in your room reinventing the wheel giving yourself ulcers. Is that from God? Are you infallible? Did God found a Church so it could disappear and leave you to find the path to Heaven yourself on the Internet? Did he annoint John Lane and Fr. C as vicars of Christ?
Only the devil wants you living like this. He's playing you like a violin appealing to your anger, pride, and fears to isolate you from the sacraments, have you hate the visible Church and lead yourself and your family into despair and a loss of Faith.
You'll have my prayers.
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John Lane and Fr. Cekada have as much authority to judge rites of the Church as your postman.
You need to apply the same skepticism and cynicism you have for the NO to their arguments. It is undeniable that they have a vested interest in saying NO rites aren't valid as they want to funnel people towards Sede chapels exclusively. Preferably their Sede chapel. It is Protestantism all over again.
The dilemma you find yourself in should be a red flag that somewhere along the way there is a flaw in your reasoning. Even the Society admits NO rites are valid. Michael Davies wrote a great peice as to why the ordination and consecration rites are still valid.
I think you sell Our Lord short. He left us an indefectible, visible, hierarchical Church that will last to the end of time. This Church must have valid rites when they are approved for use by the universal Church.
Read "The Great Facade". You'll see that this Crisis is a facade of optional novelties binding on no one. There have been severe crises in the Church before and Catholics did not become Sedes, except the Protestants who rejected the Papacy and the Pope.
Your priest is a valid and holy priest. Keep going there. Consult him on these issues. Don't isolate yourself in your room reinventing the wheel giving yourself ulcers. Is that from God? Are you infallible? Did God found a Church so it could disappear and leave you to find the path to Heaven yourself on the Internet? Did he annoint John Lane and Fr. C as vicars of Christ?
Only the devil wants you living like this. He's playing you like a violin appealing to your anger, pride, and fears to isolate you from the sacraments, have you hate the visible Church and lead yourself and your family into despair and a loss of Faith.
You'll have my prayers.
The voice of reason and true charity has spoken.
Jim have you considered that your scrupulosity might be psychological in origin, a form of OCD? In addition to heeding Santo Subito's advice, I would suggest that I might be to your advantage to seek out a good Catholic psychologist or psychiatrist. Trust me, I know from personal experience (maybe not as extreme as yours) the damage scruples can to a persons spiritual progress and how they can rob you of all interior peace. My particular brand of scrupulosity manifests itself in the inability to distinguish the difference between mortal and venial sin. How I've tortured myself, was my sin mortal or venial, did I sin or was I merely tempted? On and on, over and over again. The scruples truly are the devils playground.
How richly God has blessed you in having access to a holy and orthodox priest. Listen to him and be obedient to his spiritual direction. All the good spiritual writers insist on complete obedience and docility to your priest to overcome the scruples. I personally have made great progress been greatly healed of this malady (not completely, still suffer relapses at times) just by frequent confession.
I have also found the following resources extremely helpful in understanding and overcoming scrupulosity.
For me personally the first rule direct from the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13640a.htm
They are not bound to repeat anything of former confessions unless they are sure without protracted examination, that it is a mortal sin and has never been properly confessed.
http://www.catholicpamphlets.net/pamphlets/Are%20You%20Scrupulous.pdf
http://www.fathersofmercy.com/our_apostolates/missionaries/menezes/ten_commandments_scrupulosity.pdf
http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/pdf_archive/SA_0809.pdf Part One
http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/pdf_archive/SA_0909.pdf Part Two
http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/pdf_archive/SA_1009.pdf Part Three
http://mission.liguori.org/newsletters/scrupulosity.htm Ten Commandments for the Scrupulous
A series of excellent treatises by an FSSP priest on scruples, and how to overcome them. They're only available in pdf form
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/On_Scrupulosity_I.pdf
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/On_Scrupulosity_II_02.01_.pdf
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/On_Scrupulosity,_III.pdf
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/On_Scrupulosity_IV.pdf
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/On_Scrupulosity_V_2009-05-10.pdf
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/On_Scrupulosity_VI_2009-05-17.pdf
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/On_Scrupulosity_VII_2009-06-07.pdf
http://www.olmcfssp.org/cms/images/uploads/On_Scrupulosity_VIII_2009-06-14.pdf
Although I don't visit this forum on a regular basis, rest assured I'll remember you in my prayers.
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Santo Subito said:
John Lane and Fr. Cekada have as much authority to judge rites of the Church as your postman.
You need to apply the same skepticism and cynicism you have for the NO to their arguments. It is undeniable that they have a vested interest in saying NO rites aren't valid as they want to funnel people towards Sede chapels exclusively. Preferably their Sede chapel. It is Protestantism all over again.
What is John Lane's vested interest in bringing people to sede chapels, sir?
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I can't get the formating on this post to work, so forget it.
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Santo Subito, with all due respect, your post is a primary example of why people should get the heck out of the Vatican II church. You used nothing but illogical fallacies in an attempt to support your overall absurd claim.
John Lane and Fr. Cekada have as much authority to judge rites of the Church as your postman.
So when you defend the NO, aren't you making the same judgements? Isn't that a double standard?
You need to apply the same skepticism and cynicism you have for the NO to their arguments. It is undeniable that they have a vested interest in saying NO rites aren't valid as they want to funnel people towards Sede chapels exclusively. Preferably their Sede chapel. It is Protestantism all over again.
You're lying here. John Lane is a layman who lives in Australia, first of all, so do you really think he's going to try to lure people to the chapel he attends? And if you want the definition of Protestantism, go to the Bogus Ordo.
The dilemma you find yourself in should be a red flag that somewhere along the way there is a flaw in your reasoning.
Ditto.
Even the Society admits NO rites are valid.
...provided, of course, that the priest offering it has the proper intentions, though even then there is no gaurantee it's valid. Either way, the Society says that it's a mortal sin to attend the NO if you know it's wrong. And it is wrong.
I think you sell Our Lord short. He left us an indefectible, visible, hierarchical Church that will last to the end of time. This Church must have valid rites when they are approved for use by the universal Church.
The Traditional Latin Mass is a valid rite. In fact, it is THE rite of the Church. The Bogus Ordo is exactly what its name implies: bogus.
Read "The Great Facade". You'll see that this Crisis is a facade of optional novelties binding on no one. There have been severe crises in the Church before and Catholics did not become Sedes, except the Protestants who rejected the Papacy and the Pope.
That is flat out illogical. The crisis is that there is a sacreligious mass, that the true Mass is limited, and that the Dogmas of the Church have been tossed aside along with Tradition thanks to the modernists and heretics who were responsible for Vatican II. That's precisely what the Third Secret was about. But I know, you Bogus Ordites think it was about JPII getting shot. He survived that gun shot, so why would that be of enough significance to be a Secret of Fatima? You are falling for lies from satan.
And the reason people didn't become sedes during prior crisises is because the Papacies of the Popes during that time were not questionable, because they weren't responsible for the crisis!
Only the devil wants you living like this. He's playing you like a violin appealing to your anger, pride, and fears to isolate you from the sacraments, have you hate the visible Church and lead yourself and your family into despair and a loss of Faith.
I think it's the other way around. The devil is playing people like you, fooling you into believing everything is a-ok in the Church today; That Vatican II was a true council and that the NO is a valid Mass with no errors.
You'll have my prayers as well, Santo. You probably need them even more than Jim does.
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I'm sure all this back and forth is really helping Jim... :facepalm:
Just sayin....
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I agree with Santo Subito that I should not believe anything a sedevacantist tells me without researching the issue, studying, and praying myself. I really do not want to debate the issue, and I am very afraid. I hope it is God's will to make everything clear, but I should not wait for a miracle. I do not like arguing the sedevacante issue with anyone, my own personal reasons for this.
Rowsofvoices, thank you for your kind regards about my scruples. Thank you for the resources with which you provided me. I have a friend who is specifically a traditional Catholic forensic psychiatrist, but I don't know about seeing him, since he is a friend after all. I think prayer, the proper attitude, and a good professor will help me, by the grace of God.
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I agree with Santo Subito that I should not believe anything a sedevacantist tells me without researching the issue, studying, and praying myself. I really do not want to debate the issue, and I am very afraid. I hope it is God's will to make everything clear, but I should not wait for a miracle. I do not like arguing the sedevacante issue with anyone, my own personal reasons for this.
Rowsofvoices, thank you for your kind regards about my scruples. Thank you for the resources with which you provided me. I have a friend who is specifically a traditional Catholic forensic psychiatrist, but I don't know about seeing him, since he is a friend after all. I think prayer, the proper attitude, and a good professor will help me, by the grace of God.
Jim I've been reading your posts and I can relate to the depression and the despair. Almost all of my family is either heretical novus ordo or fallen away agnostic. Its terrible.
And the truth is, almost all priests out there are heretics. Its important you know this. Even the majority of those in the SSPX, CMRI, SSPV, whatever.
They are heretics because they deny that believing in Jesus Christ is even necessary for salvation. They call it "invincible ignorance." Some may not, but "invincible ignorance" is the society's official position. Its terrible, but its the way it is.
please pm me if you are interested.
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I agree with Santo Subito that I should not believe anything a sedevacantist tells me without researching the issue, studying, and praying myself. I really do not want to debate the issue, and I am very afraid. I hope it is God's will to make everything clear, but I should not wait for a miracle. I do not like arguing the sedevacante issue with anyone, my own personal reasons for this.
Rowsofvoices, thank you for your kind regards about my scruples. Thank you for the resources with which you provided me. I have a friend who is specifically a traditional Catholic forensic psychiatrist, but I don't know about seeing him, since he is a friend after all. I think prayer, the proper attitude, and a good professor will help me, by the grace of God.
Jim I've been reading your posts and I can relate to the depression and the despair. Almost all of my family is either heretical novus ordo or fallen away agnostic. Its terrible.
And the truth is, almost all priests out there are heretics. Its important you know this. Even the majority of those in the SSPX, CMRI, SSPV, whatever.
They are heretics because they deny that believing in Jesus Christ is even necessary for salvation. They call it "invincible ignorance." Some may not, but "invincible ignorance" is the society's official position. Its terrible, but its the way it is.
please pm me if you are interested.
Jim, don't listen to Curious. Curiosity killed the cat. He is WAY out there!
Explicit Belief in Jesus Christ and the holy trinity is "way out there"?
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curious is way out there?
Show me some papal docuмents saying BOD explicitly. Please.
Otherwise, retract your comment on cc23.
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Even the majority of those in the SSPX, CMRI, SSPV, whatever.
I think "the majority" is a stretch...
Does the SSPV really teach invincible ignorance? I know the SSPX does, not sure about CMRI...
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Pius IX clearly stated about about how we would be arrogant to deny the depths of ignorance to cultures so far removed from Christianity.
Could you cite a source on that, please? I'd like to see where Pope Pius IX said that.
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I think prayer, the proper attitude, and a good [con]fessor will help me, by the grace of God.
There. I fixed that for you. :wink:
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curious is way out there?
Uh... Yes. I think this is one of those 'if you have to ask ' moments. CuriousCath, by his own admission has been a very confused fellow. But recently he's been so brainwashed by MHFM and has been preaching their heretical and anti-Catholic doctrine. Only you PIO who recognizes MHFM errors fail to point this out to him or guide him correctly, at least publically. The guy is a home-aloner- behold the fruits of MHFM.. and you continnually supprt him?
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My dear friends,
I joined this forum several months ago because I came to embrace an extremely hardline SSPX/sedevacantist position. I've been wanting yo get several things off my chest for a while, and hear what fellow Catholics had to say.
I didn't grow up traditional, but thanks to the internet, my "position" on the crisis has been changing almost constantly. From Wanderer type, to FSSPer, to SSPXer, and now sede.
What at first kept me from calling myself a sedevacantist was the consequences of it. Very severe, horrifying consequences that I still don't want to deal with.
Anyways, after looking at the issue, it appears to me, a simple layman, that SVism is the answer. However, I am racked by scruples and very, very afraid.
The regular priest whose Mass I attend, who is 100% traditional and who helped me to practice my faith and change my life, was ordained in the New Rite by a bishop consecrated in the old rite. Before, I didn't worry, as only the "ut" was changed in the essential form. However, both Fr. Cekada and Mr. John Lane, both in different "camps" of sedevacantism, say that the removal of ut essentially makes his orders doubtful. If I am wrong here, please correct me.
That means I essentially do not have access to valid sacraments, have invaldily received hundreds of times, and have invalidly confessed hundreds of times.
Due to my own personal situation as well as being a weak and caring too much about human respect, what can I do? Tell my mother and the few people who care that we have to immediately stop attending that chapel, the we haven't received our Lord, and most importantly, everything you think the Church is really isn't, that BXVI et al aren't popes. I simply cannot do that, as I think it will destroy their faith.
The consequences of sedevacantism boggle my mind, anger me, and scare me, all at the same time. I have only gone to a valid Mass fewer than 20 times in my life, and have only validly confessed a fraction of the time. Obviously, my confirmation is invalid. This is NO JOKE to me.
If the people who say we cannot attend an una cuм Mass, valid orders or not, are correct, that means I haven't attended a licit Mass once my entire life. Imagine, not once. This truly scares me.
What should I do? I am going to a Mass that some say is essentially idolatry, due to "doubtful" orders as well as una cuм. I am highly likely to be in mortal sin, since I haven't validly confessed.
Occasionally, I am able to attend the Mass of a "regularized" priest who was earlier ordained sub conditione in the Duarte Costa line? Are those valid?
This whole situation is terrible for me. I find myself being angry at non-sedes for not being sedes, the situation being so "clear" to me, yet I myself am not 100% convinced that it is absolutely true, and it has taken me years to even consider sedevacantism.
Its terrible. Essentially one billion people are being duped, if the Novus Ordo is invalid, both rites of ordination are invalid, etc.
Everyone please pray for this poor wretch. I write this with tears in my eyes. Sunday night I had to cry myself to sleep.
I think someone else mentioned this, but I have heard that if you confess your sins to one who you truly believe to be a valid Priest, and you are sorry for them and intend not to commit them again, you are forgiven. But being said, supposing it is even true, I would think a general Confession (where you confess all the sins of your past life to a valid Priest) is a must.
Congradulations on getting the truth. Even though the betrayal is dissappointing you no longer have to rack your brain trying to figure out why all these things are happening. All the anomolies and aboritions are because there is no valid ruling head to teach, rule and sanctify the Church.