My dear friends,

I joined this forum several months ago because I came to embrace an extremely hardline SSPX/sedevacantist position. I've been wanting yo get several things off my chest for a while, and hear what fellow Catholics had to say.

I didn't grow up traditional, but thanks to the internet, my "position" on the crisis has been changing almost constantly. From Wanderer type, to FSSPer, to SSPXer, and now sede.

What at first kept me from calling myself a sedevacantist was the consequences of it. Very severe, horrifying consequences that I still don't want to deal with.

Anyways, after looking at the issue, it appears to me, a simple layman, that SVism is the answer. However, I am racked by scruples and very, very afraid.

The regular priest whose Mass I attend, who is 100% traditional and who helped me to practice my faith and change my life, was ordained in the New Rite by a bishop consecrated in the old rite. Before, I didn't worry, as only the "ut" was changed in the essential form. However, both Fr. Cekada and Mr. John Lane, both in different "camps" of sedevacantism, say that the removal of ut essentially makes his orders doubtful. If I am wrong here, please correct me.

That means I essentially do not have access to valid sacraments, have invaldily received hundreds of times, and have invalidly confessed hundreds of times.

Due to my own personal situation as well as being a weak and caring too much about human respect, what can I do? Tell my mother and the few people who care that we have to immediately stop attending that chapel, the we haven't received our Lord, and most importantly, everything you think the Church is really isn't, that BXVI et al aren't popes. I simply cannot do that, as I think it will destroy their faith.

The consequences of sedevacantism boggle my mind, anger me, and scare me, all at the same time. I have only gone to a valid Mass fewer than 20 times in my life, and have only validly confessed a fraction of the time. Obviously, my confirmation is invalid. This is NO JOKE to me.

If the people who say we cannot attend an una cuм Mass, valid orders or not, are correct, that means I haven't attended a licit Mass once my entire life. Imagine, not once. This truly scares me.

What should I do? I am going to a Mass that some say is essentially idolatry, due to "doubtful" orders as well as una cuм. I am highly likely to be in mortal sin, since I haven't validly confessed.

Occasionally, I am able to attend the Mass of a "regularized" priest who was earlier ordained sub conditione in the Duarte Costa line? Are those valid?


This whole situation is terrible for me. I find myself being angry at non-sedes for not being sedes, the situation being so "clear" to me, yet I myself am not 100% convinced that it is absolutely true, and it has taken me years to even consider sedevacantism.

Its terrible. Essentially one billion people are being duped, if the Novus Ordo is invalid, both rites of ordination are invalid, etc.


Everyone please pray for this poor wretch. I write this with tears in my eyes. Sunday night I had to cry myself to sleep.

Its really hard. Hard as a "mainstream" traditionalist anyway, to live.

My objections aren't really to the thesis itself, but to its consequences. I entrust myself to God's providence and mercy.

Does a change from this:

Grant, we beseech thee, almighty Father,
to these Thy servants
the dignity of the priesthood:
renew the spirit of holiness within them,
that they may he hold from Thee, O God,
the second rank in Thy service and by the example of their behaviour afford a pattern of holy living.

to this:

Grant, we beseech thee, almighty Father,
to these Thy servants the dignity of the présbyterate:
renew the spirit of holiness within them,
may they hold from thee, O God,
the second rank in Thy service and by the example of their behaviour afford a pattern of holy living.

Keep in mind the ordaining bishop was undoubtedly validly consecrated in the old rite, and was a "conservative," so defect of intention should not be worried about.

I have been praying for you ever since you asked me; I was flattered to be asked!

Your range of emotions is very interesting to read, since it is similar yet different to what I went through.  The anger at other people not seeing what to you is so clear -- for the most part -- seems to be something many of us pass through.  When I messed up on NFP and implicit faith, that gave me humility and I saw how I could be mistaken, hopefully in good will, just like those who have taken the incorrect position in the crisis.  

The New Rite of Ordination isn't what you have to worry about; it's the New Rite of Consecration.  I believe the bishops consecrated in this New Rite are invalid; therefore the priests they consecrate are also invalid.

It is also interesting that you say explicitly that it's the consequences of the sede position that bother you the most.  Most people won't admit that to themselves.  Things have come so far and become so bad that, I do believe, many just can't accept just how severe the situation really is, or just how near the Church is to total defeat.  But that is the chilling situation of the Apostasy.

I am a sedevacantist. You CAN attend an Una cuм Mass that is said by a valid priest.

You are under no obligation to starve yourself from the sacraments!

Regarding confession, find a priest ordained before 68 and go to him for confession, it will then be valid if you have other doubts.

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/Where_to_Mass.php

Read ALL of this.

Attend a Byzantine Liturgy, the priests are valid. You will be Ok!

There is one Russian Catholic liturgy in the area. However, I have heard from two different people that the priests (Russian rite Jesuits) are ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs. Not to mention if their orders are valid, etc.

Most important to my issue is human respect and my own personal weakness. I depend on my mother for a ride to Mass. What am I going to tell here (she's not really a trad) "Guess what, mom? The last 5 popes aren't really popes, and we haven't had a true pope since before you were born. Fr. X, who has been so good to us, who said a Requiem Mass for Dad and Auntie, might not even be a real priest, so we need to drive either 1 hour to the nearest SSPX chapel, or the nearest sedevacantist chapel. By the way, we both have to make a general confession, meaning that we need to confess all our sins since we may have invalidly confessed."

Its already hard enough getting to the traditional Mass. I fear if I say the above to anyone, they may lose the Faith completely.

The New Rite of Ordination in my opinion is probably valid, but many disagree.  What does this concern, your baptism?  Even a layman can baptize.  Just talk to a sede priest about whatever your problem is; learn from my mistakes, don't come here and ask laymen.  

I have been scrupulous about my baptism. Perhaps he had a defected intention, or said the wrong form, or poured the water incorrectly. My family isn't trad, so they didn't pay attention to those things. With a lack of any positive doubt, I shouldn't worry about it. I do worry about my confirmation, and would like to be conditionally confirmed.

My worries are thusly:

The only traditional priest in the area was ordained in the new rite. The bishop, a conservative, was himself consecrated undoubtedly in the old rite. Some sedes say that the removal of ut, or the use of présbyterate instead of priesthood invalidate the rite. This has dire consequences, since:

1. I do not have access to a valid Mass.
2. The same for valid confession, and I may have possibly confessed invalidly. Meaning I may be in a state of mortal sin.

This, combined with scruples and a lack of traditional friends or family, and me basically not having an interior life, is disastrous.

I went through the same thing about my baptism, the devil puts that there.  

I remember asking a priest once why someone would become a Mason, and he said "Steady work. "  For some reason, at the time, I thought this might be some kind of admission, lol.  It seemed to make perfect sense to him, while I thought he should say something like "There is nothing worth selling your soul over!"  But he was seeing it from another perspective, obviously.

Then I was thinking about other things during the baptism and I didn't hear if he said the right words.  I began worrying "What if he said Spiritum Sancto instead of Spiritus Sancti?"  I suffered over this for a long time, now it's totally gone.

If your baptism is invalid you still will have a good chance for BoD.  I know that doesn't sound reassuring, but of course no one can GUARANTEE that you will have BoD.  I realize why you are nervous, even though my hunch from what you've said is that it's valid.  Just ask a sede priest about a conditional baptism.

You seem to have your head on straight, that is why the devil will turn your sense of righteousness against you.  He has nothing else to use.  When someone sees the truth clearly and is escaping his clutches, he has to swoop in and try to make them too paranoid and letter-of-the-law.  Just relax, God has you in hand.  

Your confession is valid as long as you believe you're confessing to a real priest; then he would have what they call a "colored title."  At CMRI my friend was told he didn't have to re-confess what he had confessed in the Novus.  But if you have positive doubt the priest is invalid, yeah, you shouldn't go to his Mass.  It sounds like in this case you do not have positive doubt.  

Do you have a CMRI priest you can talk to on the phone?  I can get a number for you.  




 

So since I thought the priest was validly ordained but now have doubts about his orders, my previous confessions are valid? That's a huge relief. I am going to have to "attend" his Mass, but won't receive or go to him for confession. It all depends on the validity of the New Rite of Priestly Ordination, however.

I should call a CMRI priest. A priest of the Nine is around here, maybe I'll call him. Or Fr. Radecki.

Too bad I don't live in SoCal. Then we could talk directly.

I would try Father Gerard, the priest who baptized me.  Father Dominic is extremely busy.  But he would certainly be able to advise you.