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Offline stevusmagnus

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Pray for Blessed Pope John Paul II
« on: May 03, 2011, 08:59:40 AM »
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  • Pray for Blessed Pope John Paul II

    Michael J. Matt
    POSTED: 5/2/11
    Editor, The Remnant  
    ______________________
    (www.remnantnewspaper.com) Sounds pretty silly, doesn’t it?  But that’s the topsy-turvy way of the modern Catholic Church these days. Those still "hanging in there" are faced with little certainty, lots of question marks and endless novelty. One pope dramatically streamlines the process for beatification and canonization, and then his immediate successor and best friend in life beatifies him in record time.  Can we  blame Catholics in the pew for being a wee bit skeptical?  Some even question if the rush to beatify might have had less to do with heroic virtue than a certain ecclesial opportunism, capitalizing on the memory of an exceedingly charismatic figure.

    Who knows. But what many of us would still like to know is: Why the rush? Pope John Paul was dead. His soul was either in heaven, purgatory, or (God forbid) hell, and it made no difference to him when he was beatified. So why not follow the rules and silence the critics?

     

    Arguably, his soul may even have benefitted had the beatification followed the usual timeline. After all, when was the last time you prayed for a saint! By all accounts, his millions of fans were praying to John Paul immediately upon his death in 2005, prompting some to wonder how many remembered to pray for him, then or since.

     

    My daughter, Isabella Marie, was just three years old when Pope John Paul died. Naturally, she insisted on praying for him that very night and every night since. I often wonder if the santo subito crowd might not regard such zeal as an insult.  He was, after all, John Paul “The Great”—the most famous man on earth. To pray for him now is to call into question his greatness as well as ours.

     

    Ours? Yes, indeed! If a father is great in the eyes of the world surely his children can lay claim to some share of that greatness. And isn’t that what the santo subito fervor was all about, at least to some extent? Cafeteria Catholics proving their fidelity by shouting the accolades of a Pope the whole world loved? Santo subito became something of an absolution formula for a generation of Catholics famous for its dissent from Church teaching.  Shouted often enough and loud enough, it covered a multitude of our sins as well as the many failed policies of the pontificate. He was, after all, a superstar. As one commentator put it when John Paul visited Ireland in 1979:  “It was a rock concert with a pope!”

     

    On the other hand, one cannot find fault with John Paul for our infatuation with his celebrity. We are behaving as narcissists typically do. It’s all about us and the moment. Ours was a pope without equal because we are a people without equal! Never mind the generations of Catholics to come that will have no emotional connection to John Paul and no particular reason to call any of us “great” after our generation and its leaders left them a legacy of spiritual desolation. They’ll no doubt have found their own heroes by then.

     

    That’s just the way it is with heroes untested by time and history. In the minds of millions of Lady Gaga fans today, John Lennon—once “more popular than Jesus Christ”—might never have existed, so largely forgotten is he. And that’s the way this will be, once the TV cameras have turned away and the media move on to the next thing. No man is great until history judges him so, which is why the rush to beatify John Paul strikes many Catholics as an attempt to preemptively overrule history’s inevitable verdict against a problematic pontificate that left the human element of the Catholic Church in chaos.    

     

    For now, however, John Paul is great because we want him to be.  The vox populi, which more often than not these days is reduced to parroting the vox paparazzi, is final so long as we live and breathe. We want a hero. Bored with lives suspended by the rotting cords of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity, we’ll sleep in sewers if it means a chance sighting of a royal—any royal!—be he politician, pop star or pope. And when we catch sight of one of our media-made gods, we might well burst into tears like those little girls did at Elvis Presley concerts years ago, convinced we’re in the presence of the Divine, incapable of distinguishing between raw fame and true greatness.  He’s ours. We were there. We heard his voice. He made us something. Beatify him! Beatify us!

     

    With such a cult of personality at their disposal, it’s no surprise the Vatican wasted little time using John Paul’s incredible popularity with the world to try to shore up the Church’s beleaguered image, with some inside the Vatican no doubt recognizing a golden opportunity to beatify the Second Vatican Council by beatifying its most famous son. Never mind that the beatification fast track completely bypassed the unpleasant history of the last thirty years. Never mind that the cries of santo subito seem motivated less by an appreciation for fidelity to doctrine and more by a somewhat adolescent preoccupation with celebrity.  John Paul must be a saint!  We the people declared him so the moment he died. The Church followed our lead because we know best!

    It took four hundred years to canonize Thomas More—a giant among men who gave up everything for the Church, and was left despised, imprisoned and  headless for his trouble.  The mob wasn’t on his side. Yet his heroic virtue withstood the test of time, and, after centuries of due process, was finally proclaimed by the Church—exactly as it should have been. To this day, no one doubts his greatness or his holiness. Why? Because the Church in her wisdom took her time and proceeded according to heaven’s timetable, leaving no room for doubts and question marks here on earth.

     

    Given his flawed pontificate and the suspicious fast-tracking of his beatification, the same can never be said of Blessed John Paul. This is not fair to him, to those who loved him, or to the Church. This is political opportunism on the part of a Vatican reeling from bad press and endless scandal.  

     

    But history will record that not all Catholics went chasing after the crowd. As of April 25, 5,000 Catholics from around the world had signed The Remnant’s Statement of Reservations Concerning the Impending Beatification of John Paul II, for example--a small and humble initiative that nevertheless garnered immediate support from all around the world. The vast majority of its signatories included prayer pledges similar to that of Mr. Hellner’s from Stockholm, Sweden, who wrote: ”I will pray for the soul of John Paul II who because of the infatuation of the people did not get the help and prayers that he, as Pope, deserved.”

     

    The Statement was signed by Catholics on six  continents— by priests, professors, journalists, lawyers, working men, and housewives. It was translated into French, Italian, Spanish, Czech, Polish and German.

     

    Curious about the very notion of a remnant in a day and age when only the majority matters, the secular press covered the modest Statement with a degree of professionalism not often seen anymore. It was referenced in newspaper and Internet articles on both sides of the Atlantic, in South America and in Africa and Australia. Word of it appeared in reports on ABC News, USA Today, the Associated Press, the Catholic Herald, the New York Times, etc.  

     

    And when National Public Radio in Washington, D.C., the Associated Press in Rome, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation approached us for further comment on the fast-tracking of the beatification, to a man their reporters had no trouble understanding the reasons why loyal Catholics were raising alarums—because Catholics have always been rightfully proud of the Church’s chain-dragging approach to approving miracles and canonizing saints; because saints and miracles are by definition exceedingly rare and always exceptional; and because fast-tracking the process for anyone or any reason runs the risk of encouraging skepticism and undermining the Church’s credibility.

     

    Why neo-Catholics have such difficulty grasping that which even secular journalists understand instinctively is anyone’s guess. And it’s not as if traditionalists were the only ones with reservations. A quick Google search reveals widespread opposition, both in the Church and out. The conservative founder of Ignatius Press, Fr. Joseph Fessio, SJ, though no traditionalist, also had concerns.  Just days before the beatification he told NPR: “The Vatican should take more time with the head of the Church. As the pope he’s an historic figure, and usually historic figures don’t take their place in history until after some history has gone by and they can be assessed from a longer distance.” (NPR’s All Things Considered, “John Paul’s Rise Toward Sainthood: Going to Fast?”, 4/28/11)

     

    Nevertheless, there was no response from the Vatican Congregation for the Causes of Saints, even weeks after the Statement

    had been sent to Angelo Cardinal Amato.  Apparently, the vox populi is taken into consideration only when it echoes the vox vaticanus. No matter. The Remnant's initiative had never presumed to try to harness the kind of firepower needed to stop the beatification. It was first and foremost about injecting more sober considerations into the discussion. The Holy Father’s jersey was to be retired at all costs; we knew that.  

     

    Only time will tell if the Vatican will insist, even after so much opposition, on making a Hall of Fame bid by canonizing the pope who, despite his personal holiness, oversaw the greatest period of scandal and auto-destruction in the history of the Church. After all, the shouts of santo subito are already yesterday’s news and, unlike beatification, canonization involves papal infallibility. Surely, the Vatican realizes the Holy Ghost will not allow politics to stretch quite that far.  In the meantime, let us pray for the repose of the soul of Blessed John Paul II. MJM
     


    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Pray for Blessed Pope John Paul II
    « Reply #1 on: May 03, 2011, 10:14:22 PM »
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  • He wasnt a pope!


    Offline LordPhan

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    Pray for Blessed Pope John Paul II
    « Reply #2 on: May 03, 2011, 10:57:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: PartyIsOver221
    He wasnt a pope!


    By virtue of your sede'ism we are aware that this is your position. Many of us believe he will be declared anethama by another non-heretic Pope and council ala Pope Honorius(and to the sede's stop bringing up St. Bellermine's commentary, it is not infallible and is contridicted by others including the infallible council) but that does not in anyway mean anything in the context of this article.

    The article is saying that at best he's in purgatory, at worst hell. If he's in purgatory those who are 'praying to him and not for him' are not helping him in anyway. But they are so ignorent of the faith they do not realize this.

    We should be trying to convert the novus ordo. Sitting around saying "he's not the Pope" with no education(Because you know they havn't had a catholic education truly) for them will not help save their souls.

    The neo-con defenders of liberalism are the true evil ones, but inside the concillar church there are millions that just don't know that they are in error because they are polluted with misinformation about the faith from the neo-cons.

    Also let's not attack the person putting up the article, he didn't write it.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Pray for Blessed Pope John Paul II
    « Reply #3 on: May 03, 2011, 11:04:47 PM »
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  • Good post Lord Phan.

    I got a thumbs down for an article I didn't even write!  :laugh1:

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    Pray for Blessed Pope John Paul II
    « Reply #4 on: May 03, 2011, 11:23:22 PM »
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  • 'ello Stevus:

    I'll spare you the Joe-Sede comments, since you may have an idea of what my reaction to all this stuff is anyways, and will go ahead and point out a few things.

    Quote
    With such a cult of personality at their disposal, it’s no surprise the Vatican wasted little time using John Paul’s incredible popularity with the world to try to shore up the Church’s beleaguered image, with some inside the Vatican no doubt recognizing a golden opportunity to beatify the Second Vatican Council by beatifying its most famous son.


    The "beatification" of JP.2 did not astonish me at all for this very reason. It was a cunning and audacious attempt at rewriting history in such a hasty and dramatic manner, and at the same time it was a way whereby to cement further the "Spirit of Vatican II" in the minds and hearts of "the people of God."

    Quote
    We want a hero. Bored with lives suspended by the rotting cords of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity, we’ll sleep in sewers if it means a chance sighting of a royal—any royal!—be he politician, pop star or pope. And when we catch sight of one of our media-made gods, we might well burst into tears like those little girls did at Elvis Presley concerts years ago, convinced we’re in the presence of the Divine, incapable of distinguishing between raw fame and true greatness.  He’s ours. We were there. We heard his voice. He made us something. Beatify him! Beatify us!


    I can't help but to think that the author may have had Katherine Middleton, now Duchess of Cambridge, on his mind when he wrote this. The analogy would have been apt.

    It is a precisely accurate point that the author makes here, because the "beatification" is ultimately an expression of the modernist anthropocentricity that has dethroned in countless hearts the theocentric cosmovision of Christendom, and this is really the subtlest and most perilous form of egocentricity and autolatry: the cult of man and self, rather than the cult owed to God. Such is the fruit of "Vatican II" and JP.2 gets official honors for having promoted the thing with such seductive charisma.

    Quote
    Arguably, his soul may even have benefitted had the beatification followed the usual timeline. After all, when was the last time you prayed for a saint! By all accounts, his millions of fans were praying to John Paul immediately upon his death in 2005, prompting some to wonder how many remembered to pray for him, then or since.


    This is the greatest tragedy consequent upon this whole affair, insofar as JP.2 himself is concerned. His immortal soul may possibly be always deprived of those prayers which perhaps could have helped him (supposing he is a position gain any avail from them, though no one is to judge those things known only to God). But such comments are controversial, because it may imply that an individual declared to be a beatus by [supposed] Papal authority could possibly not enjoy the possession of eternal beatitude... ah, but I said no Joe-Sede comments, so let's keep calm and carry on...

    Someone somewhere once told me something: "I hope no one who could think I was a saint ever attends my wake. I will need many, many prayers, and absolutely no praises at all." I found that to be very profound. The worst thing [after eternal reprobation] that can happen to us after death is if we are abandoned to the Purgatorial flames by those who loved us here on earth because they foolishly think we are in heaven. That is why we are always to practice humility and prudence with our fellow neighbor, that they may not think us to be more than what we are.

    I remind people every now and then of the fact that I'm probably the most horrible sinner they're liable to meet in the present economy of things, so that when I die, or am murdered, they can at least say an Ave for me. Hopefully I may be able to avail myself of the Aves...
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.


    Offline LordPhan

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    Pray for Blessed Pope John Paul II
    « Reply #5 on: May 03, 2011, 11:26:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hobbledehoy
    'ello Stevus:

    I'll spare you the Joe-Sede comments, since you may have an idea of what my reaction to all this stuff is anyways, and will go ahead and point out a few things.

    Quote
    With such a cult of personality at their disposal, it’s no surprise the Vatican wasted little time using John Paul’s incredible popularity with the world to try to shore up the Church’s beleaguered image, with some inside the Vatican no doubt recognizing a golden opportunity to beatify the Second Vatican Council by beatifying its most famous son.


    The "beatification" of JP.2 did not astonish me at all for this very reason. It was a cunning and audacious attempt at rewriting history in such a hasty and dramatic manner, and at the same time it was a way whereby to cement further the "Spirit of Vatican II" in the minds and hearts of "the people of God."

    Quote
    We want a hero. Bored with lives suspended by the rotting cords of Liberty, Equality and Fraternity, we’ll sleep in sewers if it means a chance sighting of a royal—any royal!—be he politician, pop star or pope. And when we catch sight of one of our media-made gods, we might well burst into tears like those little girls did at Elvis Presley concerts years ago, convinced we’re in the presence of the Divine, incapable of distinguishing between raw fame and true greatness.  He’s ours. We were there. We heard his voice. He made us something. Beatify him! Beatify us!


    I can't help but to think that the author may have had Katherine Middleton, now Duchess of Cambridge, on his mind when he wrote this. The analogy would have been apt.

    It is a precisely accurate point that the author makes here, because the "beatification" is ultimately an expression of the modernist anthropocentricity that has dethroned in countless hearts the theocentric cosmovision of Christendom, and this is really the subtlest and most perilous form of egocentricity and autolatry: the cult of man and self, rather than the cult owed to God. Such is the fruit of "Vatican II" and JP.2 gets official honors for having promoted the thing with such seductive charisma.

    Quote
    Arguably, his soul may even have benefitted had the beatification followed the usual timeline. After all, when was the last time you prayed for a saint! By all accounts, his millions of fans were praying to John Paul immediately upon his death in 2005, prompting some to wonder how many remembered to pray for him, then or since.


    This is the greatest tragedy consequent upon this whole affair, insofar as JP.2 himself is concerned. His immortal soul may possibly be always deprived of those prayers which perhaps could have helped him (supposing he is a position gain any avail from them, though no one is to judge those things known only to God). But such comments are controversial, because it may imply that an individual declared to be a beatus by [supposed] Papal authority could possibly not enjoy the possession of eternal beatitude... ah, but I said no Joe-Sede comments, so let's keep calm and carry on...

    Someone somewhere once told me something: "I hope no one who could think I was a saint ever attends my wake. I will need many, many prayers, and absolutely no praises at all." I found that to be very profound. The worst thing [after eternal reprobation] that can happen to us after death is if we are abandoned to the Purgatorial flames by those who loved us here on earth because they foolishly think we are in heaven. That is why we are always to practice humility and prudence with our fellow neighbor, that they may not think us to be more than what we are.

    I remind people every now and then of the fact that I'm probably the most horrible sinner they're liable to meet in the present economy of things, so that when I die, or am murdered, they can at least say an Ave for me. Hopefully I may be able to avail myself of the Aves...


    Thumbs up, this is how you comment on or attack an article.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #6 on: May 03, 2011, 11:27:46 PM »
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  • Hobble,

    I thought beatifications were not infallible. Thus isn't it possible, though highly unlikely, that one could be truly beatifed by the Church and also in Hell?

    Offline LordPhan

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    « Reply #7 on: May 03, 2011, 11:32:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Hobble,

    I thought beatifications were not infallible. Thus isn't it possible, though highly unlikely, that one could be truly beatifed by the Church and also in Hell?


    This is true, Beatification is not infallible, it is the act of giving permission to venerate someone as opposed to canonization which is declaring it to be so.


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #8 on: May 03, 2011, 11:50:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I thought beatifications were not infallible. Thus isn't it possible, though highly unlikely, that one could be truly beatifed by the Church and also in Hell?


    For a more intelligent response to this, it behooves me to consult my library first. However, I will mention something now.

    I think you will agree with me that this predicament is unprecedented, to wit, that a Catholic can entertain serious doubts regarding a soul whose exercise of heroic virtue and miraculous intercessory powers have been recognized by the Apostolic See, and consequently declared worthy of being held as an exemplar for the faithful and of receiving liturgical cult (though only in certain local Calendars, and elsewhere by express permission of the Holy See) in a decree of beatification. At least I have never heard of any devout Catholic doing such a thing in ages past.

    I think you may also agree (or maybe not, I dunno) that the "canonization" of JP.2 may be at this point ineluctable and imminent, so it is a question that merits some consideration and will no doubt bring forth a cascade of discussions.

    Stay tuned for more...
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #9 on: May 04, 2011, 04:53:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I thought beatifications were not infallible.


    Uh, I did some homework.  :reading:

    The Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology (Rev. Frs. Pietro Parente, Antonio Piolanti, Salvatore Garofalo; trans. Rev. Fr. Emmanuel Doronzo; Milwaukee, WI: The Bruce Publishing Company, 1952) defines "beatification" (p. 31) as:

    Quote
    The recognition and declaration of the sanctity of a servant of God, made by competent authority (in the current discipline, by the Holy See). Such a declaration is formal when the Roman Pontiff---after juridical proof that public cult has not been given to the servant of God, demonstration of the heroic quality of his virtues or the fact of his martyrdom, authentic recognition of miracles worked through his intercession---permits public cult of the servant of God under determined conditions and limitations.


    Rev. Father John Brunsmann in the Handbook of Fundamental Theology (trans. and ed. Arthur Preuss;St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1932), Vol. IV: The Teaching Office of the Church, ch. i. "The Object of Infallibility" (p. 31) teaches:

    Quote
    Beatification (beatificatio) differs from canonization in that it represents not a definitive, but a preliminary judgment of the Church, which merely permits, or at least does not universally prescribe, the veneration of the respective servant of God.


    Rev. Fr. Brunsmann goes on to say a little further on:

    Quote
    Infallibility belongs only to the doctrinal judgment of the Church expressed in the formal act of canonization. (ibid., p. 32)


    Finally, Rev. Father Tanquerey in A Manual of Dogmatic Theology (trans. Rt. Rev. Msgr. John J. Byrnes; New York: Desclee Company, 1959), Tract IV The Constitution of the Catholic Church, ch. ii. "The Authority of the Church," no. 256 g. (p. 147), teaches:

    Quote
    The Church is infallible in regard to canonization of saints, but not to beatification. This opinion is true and common: truly the Church cannot make a mistake in matters which concern a profession of faith and morals, when she is making known a definitive judgment and is imposing a precept on the faithful.


    The "beatification" process of JP.2 would be what Rev. Fr. Brunsmann calls a formal process of beatification, as it was "a result of an official investigation instituted by the Holy See into the virtues, the death, and the miracles of the subject" (op. cit., p. 31), and this agrees with the entry in the above-cited Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology. The latter goes on to say:

    Quote
    None, even the uninitiated in juridical studies, can fail to recognize the supreme prudence, evident in every procedural step of  the beatification process. The Church really proceeds, as the saying goes, "with feet of lead."


    Of course, the author was referring to the process of beatification as codified by Pope Benedict XIV in De servorum Dei beatificatione et Beatorum canonizatione, which, I believe, has been abandoned in the case of JP.2.

    Considering these things with care, the beatification process is not endued with the infallibility of Roman Pontiff as defined by the Vatican Council, but the act of canonization indeed is. For the same reasons Mr. Matt discusses as explanations of why the Vatican hastened the "beatification" of JP.2, I am morally certain that he will soon be "canonized." But this is my private opinion. Not being God, I cannot have infallible knowledge of future contingencies.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #10 on: May 04, 2011, 05:06:32 AM »
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  • Quote
    Thus isn't it possible, though highly unlikely, that one could be truly beatifed by the Church and also in Hell?


    One must distinguish between what is possible and what is probable. For example, is it possible for an Islamist or a Zionist to receive instantly the unmerited graces necessary to attain to the acts of the theological virtues and of perfect contrition that are prerequisite for the devout reception of Holy Baptism and the other Sacraments? Yes, God in His infinite clemency can grant such gratuitous graces in order to manifest the greatness of His eternal charity. The best examples of a similar conversion are St. Paul and St. Augustine.

    Is it probable? Not highly, since it can be said that they have perversely rejected the Gospel and have been obdurate in their infidelities and idolatry (in the case of the Islamists) or perfidy and apostasy (in the case of the Jєωs), and God does not owe it to Himself to give such extraordinary graces to such sinners who have pertinaciously rejected the Gospel and have caused positive harm to Christendom. This He does in order to manifest the strict justice that His divine sanctity and adorable justice demand.

    Speaking strictly hypothetically, I would not personally venture to posit that a servant of God who has been formally beatified by the Sovereign Pontiff and whose Mass and Office has been formally incorporated in local Missals and Breviaries, may possibly be revealed as a reprobate at Doomsday and consequently that the Apostolic See erred in an occasion of such great moment. That the process of beatification is not an infallible act of the Roman Pontiff, however, does enable one to posit such a possibility without incurring a theological error.

    But I am hesitant to say even this. I dunno. It just seems too novel a thing to contemplate.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 03:03:30 PM »
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  • Further strengthening what the Remnant said, Canon Lawyer Ed Peters states the following:

    Quote
    * I think it would offend pious ears to pray for canonized Saints and for those proclaimed Blessed (excepting those merely named Servant of God or even Venerable), but that might just be me.


    Fr. Z adds...

     
    Quote
    +++ [Not just you.]


    Thus confirming that the soul of JPII will get zero prayers from his most ardent supporters who believe infallibly that he is in Heaven.