I should point out that there ARE different legitimate opinions in this Crisis, even within the SSPX.

Some are more inclined to make a deal with Rome at all costs, thinking that the dropping of the "pariah" status might make for more converts.

Others, perhaps more "big picture" oriented, who see the modern world as a whole and see how the whole package takes men away from true integral Catholicism, believe that we're not going to convert any significant number until there's a chastisement.

How does the state of the world factor into the question of juridical recognition of the SSPX?  The sentence doesn't make any sense.  How can anyone make a prudent judgment based upon speculation about what may or may not happen in the future?  Upon how many prospective "converts" one might acquire?  That's not looking at the "big picture" that is paralyzing the ability to make rational judgments based upon facts.  

Let's put it this way -- right now, ANYONE is welcome to run the gauntlet and join a Traditional Catholic chapel, for purposes of this discussion let's say an SSPX chapel.
They realize they're different, that many don't agree, and that the Powers That Be are very much against them.

Isn't that the attitude that we should all have with the World anyhow -- a prerequisite for properly opposing it? We all have to be willing to stand out, be scorned, be misunderstood, etc. if we want to live an integrally Catholic life in this modern world.

So if the SSPX became approved, you'd remove the prerequisite of "willing to be different" from going to Mass, but NOT from being a good Catholic in the world today. The prerequisite would still hold on the World side of things.

Catholics ought to be willing to be the same as the holy examplars.  It's not a question of being motivated by some nebulous notion of "being different" which could be as variant as there are peoples' notions of it.  The motive for going to the traditional Mass is not to be different -- it is to sanctify ourselves in and by the tradition of the Church.  How does it remove the ability to be a good Catholic in the world today?  How does juridical recognition nullify this ability?    

Maybe this is why Indult Catholics are often very worldly and seldom "integral" in their practice of Catholicism? "Willingness to stand up against opposition" is not required for membership there, so statistically you'll only have a couple members at the Church who HAPPEN to be willing to thus stand out.

This classifying of Catholics based upon the order of priests that administer the sacraments has to stop.  The worldiness of Catholics varies in degrees in any location and extension in time.  This is all subjectivism and doesn't touch upon the legal aspect of the question which is the only question facing us.  As I said, "legalization" of the SSPX will not change its character.  The characters of individual Catholics can and must change for the better, their personal progress in virtue is their business, not yours, much less does an ecclesiastical legal question hang upon it.  

Now even if Rome "converted" tomorrow and every local Catholic Church became as authentically Catholic as an SSPX chapel -- would we have any more serious Catholics? Sure, we'd have some -- whoever in the Novus Ordo is opposing the world and living a Catholic life to rival any traditional Catholic today. But how many of those are there, REALLY?

Who knows?  And how is that pertinent?

perhaps the World would know the jig is up and start persecuting Catholics if the Catholic Church turned into a super-sized SSPX. That's why I say a chastisement is ultimately necessary. The world is just TOO far gone at this point.

The chastisement of the Church began in 1965.  In order for the Church to turn into a super-sized SSPX, i.e. simple traditional clerics, they must first recognize traditional clerics who reject the very things that are ruining the Church.  None of the "approved" traditional orders publicly oppose the errors and reforms and that is why they are only half-priests.  When the SSPX is recognized, then the Church will eventually have to come to terms with the force of their arguments -- for the ace card, illegality, will be taken from their mouths and then they will have to face their opponents head on.  

How does the state of the world factor into the question of juridical recognition of the SSPX?  The sentence doesn't make any sense.  How can anyone make a prudent judgment based upon speculation about what may or may not happen in the future?  Upon how many prospective "converts" one might acquire?  That's not looking at the "big picture" that is paralyzing the ability to make rational judgments based upon facts.

I see the big picture should the SSPX accept this deal, and it doesn't look good. According to the newly-released details on the preamble, the Society would have to accept a Magisterium flawed with modernism. That would be an extremely dumb decision. You need to see the big picture.

This classifying of Catholics based upon the order of priests that administer the sacraments has to stop.  The worldiness of Catholics varies in degrees in any location and extension in time.  This is all subjectivism and doesn't touch upon the legal aspect of the question which is the only question facing us.  As I said, "legalization" of the SSPX will not change its character.  The characters of individual Catholics can and must change for the better, their personal progress in virtue is their business, not yours, much less does an ecclesiastical legal question hang upon it.

I fail to see why you want the Society to "join Rome" so badly. Why, because more people will accept them as being "in Communion"? It must be pointed out that the SSPX never lost Communion with the Catholic Church, rather the Vatican lost it. It's also quite foolish of Bishop Fellay to deem the Vatican trustworthy, especially considering Archbishop LeFebvre concluded in 1988 that they can't be trusted.

The chastisement of the Church began in 1965.  In order for the Church to turn into a super-sized SSPX, i.e. simple traditional clerics, they must first recognize traditional clerics who reject the very things that are ruining the Church.  None of the "approved" traditional orders publicly oppose the errors and reforms and that is why they are only half-priests.  When the SSPX is recognized, then the Church will eventually have to come to terms with the force of their arguments -- for the ace card, illegality, will be taken from their mouths and then they will have to face their opponents head on.

First of all, the "chastizement" began when Vatican II started, not ended. And secondly, you need to familarize yourself with what Matthew and I are talking about when we say "chastizement". The chastizement will be when the three days of darkness come. During that time, the whole world will be covered in darkness and all the demons in hell will be released to destroy their targets. About 3/4 of the world's population will be wiped out. I suggest you read what St. Padre Pio says on the subject.

SS, I'm familiar with such prophecies, but the thing you don't seem to understand is that many prophecies are contingent upon the actions of men.  In other words, the idea that we should just sit around waiting for the chastisement is to utterly miss the point of the warning to begin with.  

The chastisement is a done deal, we've already been garaunteed there will be one. Yes I agree we shouldn't just sit around, but to say the crisis will be resolved (or will be closer to being resolved) once the SSPX is recognized by the Novus Ordo community is incorrect. The NO community needs to recognize Tradition itself, that's what is important.

Do you understand what the word "contingent" means?  These prophecies of chastisement have been with us since the very beginning, in Old Testament times up to the present.  Do you think the world and the Church would be chastised if the members therein were obeying God's Law?  No, it wouldn't and that is what we are to work towards.  The juridical recognition of the SSPX is a step towards that goal.  For example, rooting out the toxic doctrine and practice of ecuмenism will be a great boon for the Church, who else would do that but the Society priests?  Their voice is suppressed and considered irrelevant because they are allegedly "irregular".  Whether you like it or not, jurdical recognition is a necessary component in this process of restoring the Church.  You're putting words into my mouth viz. the magical resolution of the crisis.  

Uh....does anybody here think the present state of the Church is NOT a chastisement ITSELF?!

I think this IS the great chastisement:

To have to doubt 95% of the sacraments being offered by the "church" because 95% of the clergy has been invalidly ordained, using sacramental rites that are no longer "sacraments" because of invalid matter!

The gravity here is that Such priests (95% of Priests Identifying themselves as Catholic) offer:

1. Invalid Mass.
2. Invalid Confession.
3. Invalid Confirmation.
4. Invalid Unction.
5. Invalid Orders.
6. Valid marriage (With seriously compromised rites)
7. Valid Baptism (With Butchered Rites)

I am NOT the only one who sees this as a Chastisement, right?

By the way, we have no Supreme Pontiff that we know of (He may be underground), Almost all the theologians are compromised, the majority of the faithful don't know squat about the faith, and the Catholic church is now infected with tares (heretics, schismatics and apostates) to such a degree, that 95% of churches claiming to be Catholic no longer look ANYTHING like the Catholic Church. And realistically, the majority of people who attend them are not even REALLY Catholic anymore, effectively speaking.

What else needs to happen to be a chastisement?

Quote

The chastisement is a done deal, we've already been garaunteed there will be one. Yes I agree we shouldn't just sit around, but to say the crisis will be resolved (or will be closer to being resolved) once the SSPX is recognized by the Novus Ordo community is incorrect. The NO community needs to recognize Tradition itself, that's what is important.

Do you understand what the word "contingent" means?  These prophecies of chastisement have been with us since the very beginning, in Old Testament times up to the present.  Do you think the world and the Church would be chastised if the members therein were obeying God's Law?  No, it wouldn't and that is what we are to work towards.  The juridical recognition of the SSPX is a step towards that goal.  For example, rooting out the toxic doctrine and practice of ecuмenism will be a great boon for the Church, who else would do that but the Society priests?  Their voice is suppressed and considered irrelevant because they are allegedly "irregular".  Whether you like it or not, jurdical recognition is a necessary component in this process of restoring the Church.  You're putting words into my mouth viz. the magical resolution of the crisis.  

Yes, the chastisement is due to the actions of man. But the point I'm trying to make is God said the great chastisement will come. This world has so much evil right now that only God can completely reverse it. The evil isn't in just the Church, it's pretty much worldwide.

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

The chastisement is a done deal, we've already been garaunteed there will be one. Yes I agree we shouldn't just sit around, but to say the crisis will be resolved (or will be closer to being resolved) once the SSPX is recognized by the Novus Ordo community is incorrect. The NO community needs to recognize Tradition itself, that's what is important.

By the way, I really feel what Blackie posted a page or two back about Bishop Williamson should be deleted. That was one of the dumbest things I have ever read, and by posting such a thing he seems to be implying +Williamson is not even a member of the Catholic Church.

SS, I think Blackie was quoting text from Benedict XVI's book, Light of the World.

I feel the same distress at those words, however.

And Benedict's words are not dumb like they may appear to be on the surface. You can be certain that what he writes is weighed and calculated.

Ratzinger remains a cunning Modernist.

Quote from: Elizabeth

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

The chastisement is a done deal, we've already been garaunteed there will be one. Yes I agree we shouldn't just sit around, but to say the crisis will be resolved (or will be closer to being resolved) once the SSPX is recognized by the Novus Ordo community is incorrect. The NO community needs to recognize Tradition itself, that's what is important.

By the way, I really feel what Blackie posted a page or two back about Bishop Williamson should be deleted. That was one of the dumbest things I have ever read, and by posting such a thing he seems to be implying +Williamson is not even a member of the Catholic Church.

SS, I think Blackie was quoting text from Benedict XVI's book, Light of the World.

I feel the same distress at those words, however.

I know, but the first thing he said in his post was "Bishop Williamson is the issue" then proceeded to post crapolla from Benedict's book on how +Williamson isn't really a member of the Chuch.

"The Light of the World" -- what an ironic title, no?

Anyhow, Blackie only got 8 thumbs down for it --

Has anyone here not voted on the post yet?

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=15954&min=30&num=10#p3

Of course, his reputation is "2" at the moment, so only 6 more downvotes and he'll be at zero.