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Author Topic: Popes against praying for decreased non-catholics  (Read 1102 times)

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Re: Popes against praying for decreased non-catholics
« Reply #30 on: Today at 02:35:42 PM »
A little prudence in all things:  Will I pray for JFK, yes, because I am told on good authority that he went to confession the day he was αssαssιnαtҽd.  If the Catholic Nancy Peℓσѕι dies tomorrow, will I say a rosary for her - No. I wish her to save her soul, but the circuмstances are far different. 

In the case of non-Catholics there is a different principle involved, especially if the person did not seem to make any movement toward the Church.  I know people were caught up with the whole "Charlie Kirk is a martyr" attitude after the assassination.  My take is, if Charlie Kirk went to hell, it was probably due to his utter stupidity, for marrying a woman who obviously had a shady, questionable past.
I have to add a clarification to my words from above.

Public information and private information are not the same. Praying for a dead heretic without any evidence at all that they changed their ways would be imprudent, and asking other Catholics to pray for such a person would be sinful.

Praying for someone if we've had a private revelation about them (private revelations are not binding) or if we have non-public information about them isn't the same as praying for a random unknown heretic. There is also one last possibility : we don't know if they are dead or alive and we pray for their sake. 

In any case, if there is any reasonable doubt about whether someone is saved or not, it is important to do a conditional prayer. Otherwise, as has been said, it can make their suffering worse.

Do not pray for random heretics nor take my words as meaning we should. I am only arguing in the favour of fringe cases.

 

Re: Popes against praying for decreased non-catholics
« Reply #31 on: Today at 03:33:16 PM »
So, we are supposed to judge the heart of the deceased?  I always pray to Our Lady. If the person is lost, She will redirect the prayer to whom she sees fit. No prayer goes to waste. There are just some people whose condition at death you do not know.
Unless you are the strictest of Feeneyites and a staunch Jansenist, you don’t know for sure the person was a validly, practicing Catholic in the state of grace, don’t bother praying for them?  Is it not better to err on the side of mercy rather than judgment? 
We don't know ANYONE'S condition at death... period...and that will include ourselves when we die until Jesus reveals it to us.
We could be chained to someone our whole life or be a siamese twin and we still wouldn't know the condition of the other person's soul at death.

As for praying conditionally... if that were a thing wouldn't it be in at least one prayer book?

Just say, "I pray for the souls in purgatory, especially anyone I know and owe and love."


Re: Popes against praying for decreased non-catholics
« Reply #32 on: Today at 04:19:29 PM »
I have a suggestion that is in accordance with the teachings of the Popes as AP graciously shared with us, and that will also satisfy piety. 

Use prayers for the holy souls in purgatory that have ecclesiastical approval. 

We are not supposed to be Protestants, who feel at complete liberty to pray totally in our own words, and as we please. Catholics are supposed to pray in the manner that Our Lord taught us, and according to the approval of the Church, as we can see in the prayers of Holy Mass, approved Catholic prayer books, the Divine Office, indulgenced prayers, and so on. 

Even in instances of mental prayer, we are taught by the saints and spiritual authors how to pray in our own words that is in a manner befitting Our Lord; with due humility and love, always with submission to the truths of our holy, Catholic Faith. 

The traditional Catholic prayer book of indulgences, The Raccolta from 1910 is available online, so I will here give some prayers that will satisfy the most ardent longings to relieve the Holy Souls in purgatory. https://archive.org/details/theraccoltaorcol00unknuoft/page/n373/mode/2up







For those who are concerned about saving those who are without the state of grace on their deathbed:

Instead of hoping that such souls ended up in purgatory, it would be far more useful to pray approved prayers for the dying on a daily basis, that they may be saved, even at the last hour. 

There is a two-volume work entitled "The Agonising Heart" (referring to the Heart of Jesus), by the Rev. Fr. Blot, 1869. https://archive.org/details/agonisingheart00blotgoog/page/n261/mode/2up

It contains ecclesiastical approval, and from p. 235 has devotions for the dying. I will give some of those prayers here.










Re: Popes against praying for decreased non-catholics
« Reply #33 on: Today at 04:56:59 PM »
We don't know ANYONE'S condition at death... period...and that will include ourselves when we die until Jesus reveals it to us.
We could be chained to someone our whole life or be a siamese twin and we still wouldn't know the condition of the other person's soul at death.

As for praying conditionally... if that were a thing wouldn't it be in at least one prayer book?

Just say, "I pray for the souls in purgatory, especially anyone I know and owe and love."
1)All prayers are conditional on being God's will. As an example, I could pray for good health every day, and God's will could be that I stay in poor health during my life as a trial. 



2)Because you can't think of one, you think they don't exist? I will give you an example. During WWI, many french families didn't know if their loved ones were still alive, or not. Praying for their safety is conditional on them being alive, is it not? Likewise, praying for their soul is conditional on them having persevered and being in Purgatory (which, considering the horrors of WWI, was no easy thing). Moreover, there are many french soldiers who became devout catholics BECAUSE of the war, despite being lukewarm during their life. 

Considering the many levels of unknown in the equation, all prayers in this instance are conditional. Conditional on information that only God has. 

3)There is a difference between the Church officials (priests and so on) and laymen. Public liturgy for known heretics WOULD DEFINITELY foster indifferentism among the flock. When the souls of millions of people are at stake, would it be prudent to hold public masses for those people? The answer is NO. Of course the Church and the Popes (who are very careful about the salvation of other people) would give the best possible instructions in order to save as many souls as possible. 

However, if someone is already aware of the risks, and knowingly prevents the possibility of sin, and only does a private prayer with no risk of scandal, that is not the same. There is a difference between "most people", who usually are not theology experts, and someone who knowingly controls their prayer intents to ensure orthodoxy. Church officials, of course, are concerned about ensuring every person in their flock will be saved. 


4)Those are merely my attempts at understanding the motives of Church officials. I am only a layman , so what I say is far less important than what my superiors say. I believe that, both the letter of the law and the spirit of the law should be taken into account when looking at what the Magisterium wrote. 

5)The prayer you gave as an example "I pray for the souls of Purgatory, especially anyone I know and love" is already a conditional prayer. It is (theoretically) possible that not a single person you love is in heaven.