Do you understand the meaning of True, False, AND, OR ? Every single time, you only read part of the sentence, you forget the "AND".
I think you have either severe reading comprehension issues, or you have issues with logical reasoning.
ASSERTING THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE BLESSED AND SAVED.
DID I EVER DARE MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT? LEARN HOW TO READ ENGLISH.
Not sure what you are on about.
You seem to think of me as some sort of sentimentalist.
Not entirely but you definitely have sentimental 'cope', see;
The Orthodox way of praying for the deceased is to do a conditional prayer. "If X is in Purgatory, please deliver X".
This is sentimental.
This is also not orthodox has the Popes have said.
Pope St. Gregory III (circa A.D. 731): “You ask for advice on the lawfulness of making offerings for the dead. The teaching of the Church is this – that every man should make offerings for those who died as true Christians [Catholics]… But he is not allowed to do so for those who die in a state of sin even if they were Christians.”
See even if someone dies as a CATHOLIC (Christian) you are not to pray for them if you know they die in the state of mortal sin. I.e You can no external reason to believe they went to confession before they died, or they died suddenly without having time to make a confession.
If X is in heaven, or in hell, praying for them is useless. Prayers are only useful for someone in Purgatory. Since it's almost impossible to know if someone is in Purgatory or not, it's better that all prayers for deceased people should be conditional.
Only Catholics go through purgatory, non Catholic are presumed damned. Catholics who die in mortal sin are also damned. Without external reasons to believe they changed/repented before death we cannot pray for them, that's what the Popes have said. It is not better for all prayers for the dead to be conditional because that is contrary to what the Popes have said, They EXPLICITLY say NOT to pray for them.
It is possible they had perfect contrition of their sins before their death, despite outwardly being outside of the Church. So, a conditional prayer "If X is in Purgatory" cannot be sinful. The worst that can happen is that the prayer is useless.
This is also sentimental. And contrary to Catholic doctrine, we cannot assume someone made perfect contrition, it is extremely difficult to make perfect contrition, God will give them the grace, and even if they have it we cannot know. So following the teaching of the Popes we cannot pray for them if 1, they die outside the Church, 2. they die in public mortal sin.
Secondly, you are making a mistake in how you interpret Papal instructions. There is a difference between public prayers and private prayers. Of course, the Popes instructed that there should never be public masses for known heretics who never showed signs of repentance before their death. Of course, it could cause indifferentism and weaken the faith of others, if such scandalous actions were to happen. However, I am making a theological point, not a disciplinary one.
This again is the real issue here, you are coping like most trads do and say we can do private prayer, but this is not the case.
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Suppl. Q. 71, A. 5: “Further, the text (iv. Sent. D. 45) quotes the words of Augustine (De Verb. Apost. Serm. xxxii): ‘If a man depart this life without the faith that works by charity and its sacraments, in vain do his friends have recourse to such acts of kindness [prayers and suffrages for him].’ Now all the damned come under that head. Therefore suffrages profit them not.”
Pope St. Gregory the Great, Moralia, Book 34: “There is, therefore, the same reason for not praying then for men condemned to eternal fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who have been consigned to eternal punishment. And this is now the reason for holy men not praying for unbelieving and ungodly men who are dead; for they are unwilling that the merit of their prayer should be set aside, in that presence of the righteous Judge, in behalf of those whom they know to be already consigned to eternal punishment.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Suppl. Q. 71, A. 5: “Gregory says (Moralia xxxiv): There is the same reason for not praying then (namely after the judgment day) for men condemned to everlasting fire, as there is now for not praying for the devil and his angels who are sentenced to eternal punishment, and for this reason the saints do not pray for dead unbelieving and wicked men, because, forsooth, knowing them to be already condemned to eternal punishment, they shrink from pleading for them by the merit of their prayers..."
That quote by Pope Martin V which you quote also clearly said "secretly practised works of piety for them" the comma and next statement of "asserting that they are going to be blessed and saved" does not mean you have to explicitly assert they are saved, it is a list of conditions, you do not have to fulfil all the conditions. Also if you pray that someone is in purgatory you imply they are saved. Because a person is either damned or saved, purgatory is just a mid stop before heaven.
So if you wish to say that Pope Martin V meant you must both pray privately AND explicitly say they are blessed and saved but pray for them in purgatory without explicitly saying they are blessed and saved, it is a redundant contradiction. Those in purgatory are saved, they have ZERO worry they will lose their souls, they just haven't received the reward.
There are plenty of other Popes who do not say you can pray privately but not publicly, but both are implied to be banned the topic is spoken of.
Thirdly, considering the abominable state of most of society, it takes a strong will to be able to consciously refuse such a state of matters and to instead be a Catholic. I am quite sure that, the Catholics of today, are far stronger than you think.
This is clearly not the case. Most trads follow the trad clergy and most of said clergy recommend praying for dead non-catholics by asking God to give them the grace before they have died (even thought they have already died and been judged). This is contrary to what the Popes have said. And this is not the only issue which trad clergy contradict Catholic teaching. Voting for a lesser evil over a greater one is another example.
The reason I make those conditional prayers, is that the pain of those in Purgatory is inimaginable. 1 minute in Purgatory is worse than a lifetime of suffering. I am certain that, there are many people who seemed to be unrepentant evildoers, that were saved. There are countless souls who are currently in Purgatory and that were forgotten by their friends or their families, or who were sometimes completely alone during their life.
This is sentimentality. You can pray for the souls in purgatory, but this is not the same as making conditional prayers for dead non-catholics. It takes an extreme miracle for someone to convert/repent moments before death, and don't be fooled by those who shed tears before dying as the Saints says, most of the time these tears are from fear and not from repentance.
Shouldn't I pray for their sakes as well, so that they enjoy heaven sooner?
It is our duty, as Catholics, to help those in Purgatory join Christ sooner.
Once again this is not the issue, the issue is praying for deceased non-catholics.
I think you have either severe reading comprehension issues, or you have issues with logical reasoning.
Not me but you. I am not the one coping about making conditional private prayers for dead non-catholics, claiming I'm not sentimental but also making sentimental statements.
Topic: Popes against praying for decreased non-catholics (Read 1446 times)