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Author Topic: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.  (Read 51346 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2024, 09:14:24 AM »

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In the SV/ST positions, these men were not appointed by individuals who were even materially pope.
Right.  Put aside the straight SV position because that position just doesn't even attempt to deal with reality.


The ST/Siri position would not necessarily mean that J23, P6, JP1 or JP2 didn't hold the material office.  If Siri resigned under duress, then he's still the pope in a SPIRITUAL sense, but one could argue that his material office could be forfeited and/or held by one of these V2 scoundrels, simply out of practical necessity.  In other words, on the HUMAN/Govt side of things, with Siri forced to step aside, then the 'fake pope' would in fact/in reality run the vatican govt.  Someone has to.  Life doesn't stop.  Power vacuums must be filled.

I see no doctrinal reason why a non/fake pope couldn't wield control of the Vatican govt, as this already happens during a true sedevacant, when a pope dies.  From a govt perspective, it would be similar to when a pope becomes temporarily incapacitated.  Someone else steps up to run things.  So if Siri is forced to step aside, he still retains ALL SPIRITUAL authority but he effectively is "incapacitated" on the govt side.  

Thus, all these Cardinal appointments would be valid as they are mostly a govt office.  "Supplied" jurisidiction works for an anti-pope appointing/filling diocesan bishops.  Why wouldn't it work for appointing Cardinals, whose job/function is MUCH LESS spiritual than a diocesan bishop?

Offline Yeti

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Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2024, 10:58:41 AM »
That happened after his election to the papacy.  My point was, given Fr. Cekada's assertion that most SVs have rejected the notion that Montini et al. FELL from the papacy, but instead hold that they were never popes to begin with, on account of manifest heresy ... where's the evidence of heresy before his election?

Or was Fr. Cekada wrong?
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That's an interesting question. Someone should do a study of what Montini was up to before 1963. I asked various people if Roncalli was a heretic, and the answer I got was that there isn't really any proof that he was an unbeliever either before or during his "pontificate". But then I read that fantastic book "Nikita Roncalli", and it tells the story about how Roncalli spent his whole life promoting communism, which is a form of apostasy. So that's how he was a non-Catholic before his "election".

I think the reason people don't know about Montini's past is just because no one has really looked into it. But he must have been a heretic, since otherwise election to the papacy would have turned him from being a Catholic into a raging heretic, which seems contrary to the nature of the papacy and possibly against the promises of Christ. It's sort of a matter of eliminating the other alternatives, to some extent.

I think a lot of the sedevacantist literature focuses on the errors and heresies from Montini during his "reign" in order to prove that he could not have been a true pope, but I've never actually read anyone who really did a study of his activities before his election apart from a few basic facts that we have all heard already, such as his support for communists and things like that. (His sodomitic activities, if that's even true, are not relevant, since that doesn't make one an invalid pope, and we have had a couple of true popes in the past who committed this sin anyway.)


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2024, 06:59:03 PM »
If that's all they have on Montini, it's a huge nothingburger.  Which dogma did he contradict by emphasizing a "communal" nature of the Church over the hierarchical?  There was a trend known as "Models of the Church", where they looked at the Church from different perspectives, all of which were considered true at the same time.

Nothing there that would come close to being pertinacious manifest heresy that would cause loss of membership in the Church.

I'm absolutely convinced that the reason people consider Montini an Antipope was due to what he DID to the Church and what he taught DURING the Council.

So, again, the question is WHY did Fr. Cekada feel the need to make a shift to holding that he was never Pope to begin with rather than that his heresy became manifest later, say, during the Council?  Is it true that most sedevacantists made the shift also?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2024, 07:09:41 PM »
But he must have been a heretic, since otherwise election to the papacy would have turned him from being a Catholic into a raging heretic, which seems contrary to the nature of the papacy and possibly against the promises of Christ. It's sort of a matter of eliminating the other alternatives, to some extent.

Be that as it may, his heresy would have remained occult, and occult heresy doesn't remove one from membership in the Church and therefore would not have precluded legitimate election.  In other words, he would have remained pope until his heresy became manifest.

And I absolutely agree with you that the promises of Christ would prevent a Pope who was legitimate at his election from wrecking the Church, but would either cause him to drop dead or would convert him.

This, IMO, is why the sedevacantist thesis regarding Montini is completely unsatisfactory ... and why I favor the Siri Thesis.  One might also contend that Montini was being blackmailed due to his sodomy, which would render his acts null and void since they wouldn't have been free.

Way too much emphasis is placed on the personal manifest heresy angle by the SVs, and the establishment of manifest heresy must somehow happen a priori to the Pope's Magisterium, because the problem then becomes, "Oh, here's Pope Pius XIII.  He just issued and Encyclical.  It contains heresy.  He's not the pope."  So, in order to reject any teaching of the Magisterium you don't like or decide is heretical, all you have to do is to declare the See vacant.  Old Catholics could have just done the same thing.

We know that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church and could not have been the result of legitimate papal authority FREELY EXERCISED.  That's the "dogmatic" aspect of SVism.  BUT, as to what actually caused it or how it happened and what mechanisms were in play?  Only God knows.

Offline Yeti

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Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2024, 10:49:59 AM »
If that's all they have on Montini, it's a huge nothingburger.  Which dogma did he contradict by emphasizing a "communal" nature of the Church over the hierarchical?  There was a trend known as "Models of the Church", where they looked at the Church from different perspectives, all of which were considered true at the same time.
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I agree. I'd like to see the context. I doubt if Fr. Cekada was supplying those quotes as arguments that Montini was a heretic before his election. The quotes were weird but I didn't exactly see what the heresy would be either.

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So, again, the question is WHY did Fr. Cekada feel the need to make a shift to holding that he was never Pope to begin with rather than that his heresy became manifest later, say, during the Council?  Is it true that most sedevacantists made the shift also?

Hmm, good question. Here's the article where he said it. I'll have to read through it later when I have time and see what his point is. I think maybe it could be related to the controversy as to whether a pope even could fall into heresy to begin with, and this is a way of avoiding that. I think it also makes a little more sense too, in that the alternative would be that papal election turned Montini from being a faithful Catholic into a raging heretic, which seems absurd and impossible on several levels. I'm not sure there is any other alternative.