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Author Topic: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.  (Read 51351 times)

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Offline NishantXavier

Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« on: November 13, 2024, 05:03:11 AM »
Written by one Laszlo Szijarto and online here: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/sifting.htm

Posting the intro and the conclusion as excerpts. The rest can be read in the link. God Bless.

"Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism
 
 by Laszlo Szijarto
 
Taken from Angelus Press Magazine October 1995
 
 
Some theologians hold that a pope would lose his office ipso facto [by the very fact] by falling into manifest heresy.[1] l Sedevacantists  have  devoted  much  time and  effort to pointing  this  out.  According  to  the  principle  papa a nemine judicandus,[2] [the pope is to be judged  by no one] no declaration by the Church could effect the deposition  of a pope.  Catholics,  however,  do not  have  the right to make a determination on their own as to the fact of whether deposition   had  actually  taken  place  in  this  manner.
 
Although manifest heresy would  ontologically  effect deposition ipso facto, a determination would have  to be made  by the Universal Church about that very fact embodied in the expression ipso facto most probably  through   the  declaration of a General Council before individual Catholics  could arrive at such a conclusion criteriologically ...

Among the other contradictions in which sedevacantists involve themselves, many reject the re- formed Holy Week rites of Pius XII. At the same time, however, they uphold  the  legitimacy  of Pius XII.  If Pius  XII  can  promulgate a liturgy contaminated with modernistic principles (as they assert), then why could not Paul VI   have   done   the same (with regard to the   Novus  Ordo ) while   also   remaining  a  legitimate  Supreme  Pontiff? After all, there would only be a difference  in degree  between  them.  Rejection of the reformed  Holy Week rites which had, by the way, been accepted  without any protest whatsoever from the Universal Church– remains absolutely inexplicable in light of their argument from infallibility.
 
However one resolves the infallibility question,  that ultimate decision  about  the  legitimacy  of John XXIII,  Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, or any other  pope  does not rest with us but with the authority of Holy Mother Church.
 
                                                            Fruits of Sedevacantism
 
I myself had once been a sedevacantist.  Only  in retrospect  can I honestly see the great bitterness and lack of charity that this led to on my part. I have found nothing  but spiri- tual disorder–to one extent or another–in  all  the  sedevacantists   I have  ever met (myself included  and foremost  among  them).  It would  be best to leave out the numerous downfalls–in scandalous fashion–of bitter  sedevacantists.  Our  Lord  said that people would recognize His true followers  in  their  love  for  one  an- other. Hatred  for evil becomes disordered  when  it does  not  proceed  directly  from  and  in  proportion with love for good.  If we reject the Conciliar  reforms,  it  should  be  from  a burning  love for God  and  for our neighbor.  Pope John XXIII used to say that if we behaved  as true Christians there  would  be  no  more  pagans. If we “Traditionalists” behaved as true  Christians,  there  would  be no more modernists.  Let us then dispel any bitterness from our hearts, any pharisaical  spirit of a rigorous clinging to minutiae [small things] as if they were ends in themselves, any self-righteous contempt  for those who  have  been  led  astray  as if it were anything but the grace of God that prevents  us from going astray ourselves if  we have  not  done  so already. We need to remember that our judgments  even about the purported “errors” of Vatican II do not have the Church’s authority behind them–and are therefore  liable to be mistaken. Consequently, all we can and  must  do as Catholics  in these confusing  times  is to  do  what  we have  to in order  to save our souls. Let us proceed  with intellectual humility, with charity, with trust in God’s Providence, and, as Archbishop  Lefebvre has said, “without bitterness.”
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2024, 05:36:41 AM »
Do you have a point?  You think you're doxing me or something, you malicious heretic?  While I have referred to this letter myself before, your obvious intention to dox out of malice should result in your immediate banning.  You will be reported for this.  You feign sanctimonious piety all the time, but it's a lie just like everything else you post.  I'm also going to go on X and call you out for malicious doxing on another forum to show your "followers" who you really are.

Not sure how many times I've had to explain to your low-IQ and/or dishonest brain that I'm a sedeprivationist and not a sedevancantist.  I've referred to this letter before and explained its history.  I wrote this as a letter to a friend who had asked me why I had backed away from straight sedevacantism.  This was never intended for publication but somehow got over to The Angelus and they published it without my permission or knowledge ... and even made some edits, including some faulty translations.  It didn't even have my name on it, which they added ... but spelled wrong.  They knew where I was and could have easily reached out to me.

In any case, this started me on my journey away from SVism toward sedeprivationism.  Interestingly, then-Father Sanborn, whom I had left just before this I wrote this, ended up in the same place by a different route.  You'll notice that this is not an endorsement of R&R, which The Angelus took it to be, engaging in false dichotomy, something you do all the time, just an expression of my difficulties with straight SVism, which was in fact my original title, or, rather, subject line,  ... which I still hold to and continue to argue when I debate straight SVs on CI here.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2024, 07:17:54 AM »
Mark/Xavier, I thought you wanted to teach a billion non-Catholics?  How are you going to do this if you’re posting so much on this site?  I thought you wanted to evangelize?
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Offline Godefroy

Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2024, 07:20:49 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 13, 2024, 07:17:54 AM
Mark/Xavier, I thought you wanted to teach a billion non-Catholics?  How are you going to do this if you’re posting so much on this site?  I thought you wanted to evangelize?
Some people have the gift of bilocation. We couldn't possibly understand. 
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Pope Sifting - Difficulties with Sedevacantism from Angelus 1995.
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2024, 08:00:32 AM »
Quote from: MarkM on November 13, 2024, 07:54:26 AM
Answered in the other thread. No one wants to discuss Pope-sifting and the OP article itself I see. :laugh1: That's fine.

No one really wants to discuss it with you, since you're not really "one of us", but are just here to troll and on some mission to "convert" us (even though we're all Catholics here, despite your claims).  I've discussed the article above at length and have debated it with various posters here on CI, so much time has already been spent on it.  I'm not about to "discuss" it with an Indulter troll who really has no business here and isn't one of us, but is here on a mission to convert, to attack, and to promote your errors.  Seems like you showed up here mostly to shill for Trump, but now you've moved on to your other pet topics.

Should you be spending your time more on worshippers of Shiva / Vishnu than on those who profess the One True Faith ... whether or not you agree with our conclusions about the Crisis ... that has confused and baffled the best Catholic minds?

But, see, your Pope Bergoglio has condemned you, since you're clearly here trying to "prosletyze".  Instead you should be respecting our sincerely-held beliefs instead of coming here condemning us ... since all religions lead to heaven anyway.

But since all religions lead to heaven, including the worship of Shiva / Vishnu, why are you even bothering?  You yourself now claim infidels can be saved without converting.  So what's the point of your effort here?
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