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Author Topic: Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach  (Read 2603 times)

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Offline umblehay anmay

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Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
« on: November 29, 2014, 01:51:25 PM »
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  • You still believe he is a true Pope?


    Offline umblehay anmay

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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #2 on: November 29, 2014, 02:03:18 PM »
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  • That is heretical.  We are supposed to covert them not worship with them.
    Pope Francis needs to read about St Francis of Assisi who converted Moslems and the Jєωιѕн people without watering down his Catholic Faith.
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #3 on: November 30, 2014, 01:40:19 PM »
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  • Outreach to what? Encouraging Catholics to break the First Commandment and pray to a moon-demon and the devil-worshiping, child-rapist "prophet" of that same religion?

    Only Semitic-speaking Catholics (Maltese, Arabic, etc.) have a right to the word "Allah".
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline umblehay anmay

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #4 on: November 30, 2014, 04:10:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
    That is heretical.  We are supposed to covert them not worship with them.
    Pope Francis needs to read about St Francis of Assisi who converted Moslems and the Jєωιѕн people without watering down his Catholic Faith.


    Its not that he doesn't know what Saints such as Francis said or that he doesn't know what the Church taught ex cathedra on the subject... .he is a HERETIC plain and simple.  He doesn't hold the Catholic faith.  How can people who claim to be traditional Catholics still call this man "Pope" ?


    Offline andysloan

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #5 on: November 30, 2014, 05:06:17 PM »
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  • Luke 15:1-2


    "Now the publicans and sinners drew near unto him to hear him.  And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them."




    "Make yourselves loved by your humility and charity, becoming all things to all men. Show that you conform, as far as the Institute of the Society permits, to the customs of the people there. Be prepared to teach matters of faith and morals in a way that is accommodated to those people… Without taking away from them anything in which they are particularly interested or which they especially value, try to get them to accept the truths of Catholicism." Later, he adds: "Although you are ever intent on bringing them to conformity with the Catholic Church, do everything gently, without any violence to souls long accustomed to another way of life.’"
    - St Ignatiuas Loyola - Advice to Jesuit Missionaries


    You don't know his intention! Do not judge!

    Offline OHCA

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #6 on: November 30, 2014, 11:21:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    Luke 15:1-2


    "Now the publicans and sinners drew near unto him to hear him.  And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them."




    "Make yourselves loved by your humility and charity, becoming all things to all men. Show that you conform, as far as the Institute of the Society permits, to the customs of the people there. Be prepared to teach matters of faith and morals in a way that is accommodated to those people… Without taking away from them anything in which they are particularly interested or which they especially value, try to get them to accept the truths of Catholicism." Later, he adds: "Although you are ever intent on bringing them to conformity with the Catholic Church, do everything gently, without any violence to souls long accustomed to another way of life.’"
    - St Ignatiuas Loyola - Advice to Jesuit Missionaries


    You don't know his intention! Do not judge!


    The heretic's intention is irrelevant.  He is leading souls to hell by his words and examples.

    Offline andysloan

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 06:26:25 AM »
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  • OHCA said:

    "The heretic's intention is irrelevant. "


    Not to God it isn't!


    1 Samuel 16:7


    "And the Lord said to Samuel: Look not on his countenance, nor on the height of his stature: because I have rejected him, nor do I judge according to the look of man: for man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart."
    [/b]



    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 06:42:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    Luke 15:1-2


    "Now the publicans and sinners drew near unto him to hear him.  And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying: This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them."




    "Make yourselves loved by your humility and charity, becoming all things to all men. Show that you conform, as far as the Institute of the Society permits, to the customs of the people there. Be prepared to teach matters of faith and morals in a way that is accommodated to those people… Without taking away from them anything in which they are particularly interested or which they especially value, try to get them to accept the truths of Catholicism." Later, he adds: "Although you are ever intent on bringing them to conformity with the Catholic Church, do everything gently, without any violence to souls long accustomed to another way of life.’"
    - St Ignatiuas Loyola - Advice to Jesuit Missionaries


    You don't know his intention! Do not judge!


    Do we know his actions?  Some actions are of such clarity that guessing the intentions is not necessary.

    The Pope was directly told that if he loved Our Lord, then he would show this love by feeding His sheep.  Does Pope Francis think Islam is an alternative route to Our Lord.

    Quote it, Andy.  After the Ressurrection, Our Lord required a confession only from St Peter and three times He asked St Peter if he loved Him.  Three times the response and proof of that love was that St Peter would feed His sheep.  So, does Pope Francis think that the sheep can be fed in a mosque also?  



    Offline andysloan

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 06:53:55 AM »
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  • Perhaps he sees it as as a good opportunity to bear witness to Christ?

    You have heard Fr Martin speak of St John Paul 2's tactics.



    The best he could do was bear witness to Christ, as his vicar and seed people in anticipation of when "Our Lady comes"

    Wisdom is very subtle. The times we live in are very different to pre-St John 23rd because God has "withdrawn grace" in our period.

    Yet whatever the case, we cannot judge Pope Francis' intention, so we should remain silent, remembering the 8th commandment and pray for the Pope.

    Offline Nishant

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 07:56:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: Andy
    Yet whatever the case, we cannot judge Pope Francis' intention, so we should remain silent, remembering the 8th commandment and pray for the Pope.


    Totally wrong. The Angelic Doctor says that when there is proximate danger to the Faith, prelates should be rebuked even publicly, by their subjects. This was the example St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, himself set, when he accepted St. Paul's rebuke. Archbishop Lefebvre taught and did the same. We must love the Holy Father and pray for him, as we would love our own father even if he did something scandalous, but we must not encourage the action, or by our silence and complicity, allow others to fall into error. The most important proclamation Pope Francis can and should make to the Muslims and to all others is that there is no salvation except in the Name of Jesus Christ and that whoever remains outside the Church cannot be saved. Many Catholics are led astray into thinking Islam is good and salvific by this kind of behavior, while the Islamists just keep killing Christians and laugh at the weakness of the Roman authorities. In the place of a conduct inspired by brave faith in Our Lord's divinity and Kingship, today's prelates by their weakness humiliate the many martyrs who even at this hour, at the hands of the Mohammedans, are shedding their blood for Christ and His Church by refusing subjection to Islam.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline andysloan

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #11 on: December 01, 2014, 01:12:41 PM »
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  • Nishant said:

    "Totally wrong. The Angelic Doctor says that when there is proximate danger to the Faith, prelates should be rebuked even publicly, by their subjects."


    St Thomas is surely correct; but that doesn't necessarily apply in this particular case.

    "Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words."

    St Francis of Assisi


    If not already done, you should listen to Fr Martin's sound analysis regarding St John Paul 2's strategy.

    Overall, even if Pope Francis' action is wrong, we do not know Pope Francis' intention, so we cannot judge.

    Pope Francis has also declared (on two occasions) there is no salvation outside the Church

    "It is an absurdity to love Christ without the Church, to feel Christ but not the Church, to follow Christ from the outskirts of the Church. Christ and the Church are united. Whenever Christ calls a person, He brings that person to the Church. For this it is good [that a child] come to be baptized in Church - Mother Church".


    Sermon - Feast of St George 2013

    I myself am engaged in converting a moslem. It is not a simple as a straight declaration, "convert or be damned". The most effective way is by declaration of Jesus Christ, the need of repentance, good example coupled with prayer.






    Offline Ladislaus

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #12 on: December 01, 2014, 02:12:29 PM »
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  • Clearly the actions constitute a grave sin against the faith and an unspeakable scandal.

    Yet actions cannot render one guilty of "heresy"; actions are not beliefs.  They can render one "suspect of heresy".  So, for instance, if before Vatican II you saw someone going regularly to a Protestant church for services, they become suspect of heresy.  Then the Canon Law presumed someone guilty of heresy after a certain period of time during which the suspect behavior continues.  If, however, there's evidence to the contrary, while the actions would constitute a grave sin against the faith, it may not actually mean being a heretic.  So, for instance, someone might just be going to the Protestant chapel because he has a friend who goes there, and perhaps even with the intention of going to convert some of them, not knowing that it would be forbidden even for noble motives.

    So the truth is somewhere in between.  Yes, the actions can be judged as reprehensible, scandalous, and a grave sin against the faith.  No, the actions do not by themselves prove heresy.  I doubt that Francis is actually a secret Muslim.  He most likely believes that he's fostering some kind of "good will".

    Again, the core heresy here is religious indifferentism and the rejection of EENS ... not that he's a Muslim.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #13 on: December 01, 2014, 02:15:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    St Thomas is surely correct; but that doesn't necessarily apply in this particular case.


    It has never applied more.

    Offline umblehay anmay

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    Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new outreach
    « Reply #14 on: December 01, 2014, 09:41:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Yet actions cannot render one guilty of "heresy"; actions are not beliefs.  


    St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. II, Q. 12, A. 1, Obj. 2: “… if anyone were to…worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.”18