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Author Topic: Pope Paul VI and Infalliblity of Vatican II  (Read 3032 times)

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Offline Diego

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Pope Paul VI and Infalliblity of Vatican II
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2011, 05:00:43 PM »
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  • You claim the laity are excluded, but they are not:

    Quote
    Galatians 2:11
    “But when Cephas [Peter] was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.”

    Acts 5:29
    “But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men.”

    St. Robert Bellarmine, Doctor of the Papacy, De Romano Pontifice, Book II, Chap. 29
    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff that aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist the one who aggresses souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and to prevent his will form being executed; it is not licit however, to judge [canonically or temporal court], punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior.

    Francisco Suarez, 16th century theologian, never rebuked in times when rebuke was certain and swift, in De Fide, Disp. X, Sec. VI, N. 16.
    And in this…way the Pope could be schismatic, if he were unwilling to be in normal union with the whole body of the Church, as would occur of he attempted to excommunicate the whole Church, or, as both Cajetan and Torquemada observe, if he wished to overturn the rites of the Church based on Apostolic Tradition… if [the Pope]… gives an order contrary to right customs, he should not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him; if he attacks by force, by force he can be repelled, with a moderation appropriate to a just defense.”

    St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, IIa IIae, Q. 33, A. 4: “There being an imminent danger for the Faith, prelates must be questioned, even publicly, by their subjects.  Thus, St. Paul, who was a subject of St. Peter, questioned him publicly on account of an imminent danger of scandal in a matter of Faith.  And, as the Glossa of St. Augustine puts it (Ad Galatas 2.14), ‘St. Peter himself gave the example to those who govern so that if sometimes they stray from the right way, they will not reject a correction as unworthy even if it comes from their subjects.”

    St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, IIa IIae, Q. 104, A. 5: “It is written: ‘We ought to obey God rather than men.’ Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God. Therefore, superiors are not to be obeyed in all things.”

    Blessed Pius XI, Letter to Bishop Brizen: “If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him.”

    St. Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory, Chapter 3, Section 7:“What then should a Catholic do if some portion of the Church detaches itself from communion of the universal Faith? What choice can he make if some new contagion attempts to poison, no longer a small part of the Church, but the whole Church at once? Then his great concern will be to attach himself to antiquity which can no longer be led astray by any lying novelty.”

    St. Athanasius, Epistle to the Catholics: “Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.”

    St. Catherine of Siena, Letter to Pope Gregory XI: “Alas, Most Holy Father!  At times, obedience to you leads to eternal damnation.”

    First Vatican Council, Pastor Aeternus §4: “For the Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by His revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by His assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or Deposit of Faith transmitted by the Apostles.”


    It is your duty to show that laity are excluded from resisting error.


    Offline Diego

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    Pope Paul VI and Infalliblity of Vatican II
    « Reply #16 on: November 08, 2011, 05:08:58 PM »
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  • You don't get to escape.

    I provided 12 authorities that we may resist error.  None of them exclude the laity.

    You claim the laity are excluded, so the burden is on you to make your case.

    I won't hold my breath,


    Offline Diego

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    Pope Paul VI and Infalliblity of Vatican II
    « Reply #17 on: November 08, 2011, 05:16:57 PM »
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  • You claim the laity are excluded. Prove it.

    Offline Diego

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    Pope Paul VI and Infalliblity of Vatican II
    « Reply #18 on: November 08, 2011, 05:30:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stephen Francis
    You [referring to aquinasg], sir, are an idiot.


    Maybe "Raca!" would even apply [joking].

    "Aquinas" (as if!) has opened up many fallacious fronts. He (?) has used straw man arguments, ignored logical inference, attempted evasion, indulges popolatry, teaches false obedience, and is the nadir of willful Vatican 2 distortion of the Faith.

    He calls evil good, and good evil: puts darkness for light, and light for darkness: puts bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. He rues wise in his own eyes, and prudent in his own conceits.

    He is the personification of Isaias 5:20-21.

    I say starve him for the attention his narcissistic flaming craves.

    Offline Gregory I

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    Pope Paul VI and Infalliblity of Vatican II
    « Reply #19 on: November 08, 2011, 07:40:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: aquinasg
    We all know that theologians can dissent from doctrines required "religious assent". That is what your quotes speak of. Every John Doe cannot reject what he wants from papal docuмents because he thinks he knows better


    So, what you are basically saying is that YOUR interpretation of papal writings is binding and authoritative and you know better than other theologians? THAT sounds like protestantism!  :geezer:

    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila