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Author Topic: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"  (Read 13950 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2018, 11:38:32 AM »
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  • I think I get it- if  heterosɛҳuąƖs commit acts of sodomy it is against the natural law. Natural heterosɛҳuąƖ relations however illicit/sinful may remain in the natural law. Which I think was my point.

    I know what you meant, but the one poster jumped on your use of "against natural law".  Usually, sins like ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity are technically referred to as sins "against nature".  There are many sins that are against natural law which are not at the same time against nature.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #61 on: May 23, 2018, 11:38:54 AM »
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  • I think I get it- if  heterosɛҳuąƖs commit acts of sodomy it is against the natural law. Natural heterosɛҳuąƖ relations however illicit/sinful may remain in the natural law. Which I think was my point.

    Here is a passage from the Summa (II.II.q153.art2) which shows how natural law applies to sɛҳuąƖ morality:

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    A sin, in human acts, is that which is against the order of reason. Now the order of reason consists in its ordering everything to its end in a fitting manner. Wherefore it is no sin if one, by the dictate of reason, makes use of certain things in a fitting manner and order for the end to which they are adapted, provided this end be something truly good. Now just as the preservation of the bodily nature of one individual is a truegood, so, too, is the preservation of the nature of the human species a very great good. And just as the use of food is directed to the preservation of life in the individual, so is the use of venereal acts directed to the preservation of the whole human race. Hence Augustine says (De Bono Conjug. xvi): "What food is to a man's well being, such is sɛҳuąƖ intercourse to the welfare of the whole human race." Wherefore just as the use of food can be without sin, if it be taken in due manner and order, as required for the welfare of the body, so also the use of venereal acts can be without sin, provided they be performed in due manner and order, in keeping with the end of human procreation.

    This last sentence is the key:  "The use of venereal [sɛҳuąƖ] acts can be without sin, provided they be performed in due manner and order, in keeping with the end of human procreation."

    Any sɛҳuąƖ sins that are not "in keeping with the end of human procreation" are against natural law.  HeterosɛҳuąƖs violate natural law when committing the sins of contraception or masturbation.  Premarital or extramarital sex are sins that do not, in themselves, violate natural law.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #62 on: May 23, 2018, 11:41:40 AM »
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  • Premarital or extramarital sex are sins that do not, in themselves, violate natural law.

    Marriage per say rises above the realm of natural law, but one might argue that it's against natural law to be promiscuous, since a stable family is required to raise children properly.

    Again, "against natural law" (contra legem naturalem) is different from "against nature" (contra naturam).  There's a very specific subset of things that are contra naturam ... things like ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and masturbation, for instance.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #63 on: May 23, 2018, 12:04:56 PM »
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  • Marriage per say rises above the realm of natural law, but one might argue that it's against natural law to be promiscuous, since a stable family is required to raise children properly.

    Again, "against natural law" (contra legem naturalem) is different from "against nature" (contra naturam).  There's a very specific subset of things that are contra naturam ... things like ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and masturbation, for instance.
    Here is how St. Thomas categorized sɛҳuąƖ sins http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm :


    Quote
    Now this same matter may be discordant with right reason in two ways. First, because it is inconsistent with the end of the venereal act. On this way, as hindering the begetting of children, there is the "vice against nature," which attaches to every venereal act from which generation cannot follow; and, as hindering the due upbringing and advancement of the child when born, there is "simple fornication," which is the union of an unmarried man with an unmarried woman. Secondly, the matter wherein the venereal act is consummated may be discordant with right reason in relation to other persons; and this in two ways. First, with regard to the woman, with whom a man has connection, by reason of due honor not being paid to her; and thus there is "incest," which consists in the misuse of a woman who is related by consanguinity or affinity. Secondly, with regard to the person under whose authority the woman is placed: and if she be under the authority of a husband, it is "adultery," if under the authority of her father, it is "seduction," in the absence of violence, and "rape" if violence be employed.
    Note that he includes in vice against nature "every venereal act from which generation cannot follow."  He gets more specific about "the unnatural vice" later:

    Quote

     ...wherever there occurs a special kind of deformity whereby the venereal act is rendered unbecoming, there is a determinate species of lust. This may occur in two ways: First, through being contrary to right reason, and this is common to all lustful vices; secondly, because, in addition, it is contrary to the natural order of the venereal act as becoming to the human race: and this is called "the unnatural vice." This may happen in several ways. First, by procuring pollution, without any copulation, for the sake of venereal pleasure: this pertains to the sin of "uncleanness" which some call "effeminacy." Secondly, by copulation with a thing of undue species, and this is called "bestiality." Thirdly, by copulation with an undue sex, male with male, or female with female, as the Apostle states (Romans 1:27): and this is called the "vice of sodomy." Fourthly, by not observing the natural manner of copulation, either as to undue means, or as to other monstrous and bestial manners of copulation.
    He does go on to say that the unnatural vice is the worst form of lust, but this does not seem limited to sodomy, but includes sins that heterosɛҳuąƖs commit.

    Offline TKonkel

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #64 on: May 23, 2018, 01:48:55 PM »
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  • Please expound on this. Thanks
    I am not intending to quibble over what is contrary to "natural law" vs "sins against nature."  I am just wanting to point out that a Thomistic understanding of natural law does include things like heterosɛҳuąƖ sins of the flesh etc. In a follow up post you said "Natural heterosɛҳuąƖ relations however illicit/sinful may remain in the natural law."  If I understand you correctly, i.e. that fornication for instance, although illicit is still in accord with natural law, then this would not be correct.  Another poster said that, premarital or extramarital sex are sins that do not, in themselves, violate natural law."  This is incorrect and is not a mere quibble but really gets to the heart of natural law. 
    The natural law is simply man's participation in the Eternal Law whereby God gives all things their natural tendencies and ends.  Man can reflect upon this and order his actions accordingly.  
    The first principle of practical reason is "Good is to be done and pursued and evil is to be avoided." The more determinate principles / precepts of the natural law are founded upon those inclinations / tendencies that we have in common with other substances.  All substances have an inclination towards self-preservation as do we and from this we get precepts against murder etc.  All animals have a tendency to reproduce and raise offspring and from this we get precepts regarding sɛҳuąƖ sins and the raising / education of offspring.  Finally, man, as a rational being has an inclination to know the truth about God, live in society etc.  
    For St. Thomas, any discharge of semen in such a way that deliberately precludes or does harm to the possibility of the generation and education / raising of offspring is contrary to natural law.  So while heterosɛҳuąƖ sins are not directly against natural law insofar as they would prohibit the possibility of generating offspring, they are against the natural law insofar as they are contrary to the education and upbringing of children which is meant to be done within a stable union between spouses.  
    This of course is in no way a complete explanation of natural law.  Many other aspects of natural law are often misunderstood and should be pointed out such as the fact that a naturally good or bad act is not the same as a morally good or bad act.  The species of a natural act considered in and of itself in accidental to the moral species of an act.  It is not the mere frustration of a natural inclination as such that makes an act immoral.  Sometimes we are supposed to frustrate natural inclinations e.g. inclinations to pleasure.  


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #65 on: May 23, 2018, 02:19:04 PM »
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  •  Another poster said that, premarital or extramarital sex are sins that do not, in themselves, violate natural law."  This is incorrect and is not a mere quibble but really gets to the heart of natural law.
    That was me.  Thanks for the correction.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #66 on: May 23, 2018, 03:54:34 PM »
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  • Well, I do think he's stupid.  He kept calling Traditionalists Pelagians when he obviously meant Jansenists.  If any are Pelagians, it's the modernists.  He's not the brightest bulb.  But in this case, these actions are most likely well planned and deliberate.
    I don't think that means he is "stupid".  Ignorant of Catholic history?  Maybe.  But stupid?  No.

    Offline AnthonyB

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #67 on: May 24, 2018, 08:33:46 PM »
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  • No, God didn't create ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs - Original Sin did.  So it could well be that ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs are born with such tendencies ... just as we are all born with faults and weakness for sin.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #68 on: May 24, 2018, 09:42:41 PM »
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  • Jesus says " go and sin no more" because He loves His people.    

    Only the devil makes people into sodomites and sinners.  

    It's not "ok to be gαy".  God loves the sinner but hates the sin.  

    Thanks to Obama and Pope Francis for promoting gαy agenda and worship of false gods.
    Pope Francis didn't say that its ok to commit sin. He said that it is ok to be gαy. Of course with this situation then what is required is a life of chastity. 

    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #69 on: May 24, 2018, 09:44:09 PM »
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  • On the contrary, these examples of "disabilities" you mention open the person up  to becoming a saint! They may never have the capacity for personal sin. The "disability" of the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, acted upon , is always a grave sin. Would God create people genetically/hard wired whose only sɛҳuąƖ expression in any capacity  is grave sin? You might say that all of these people are called to continence and their self- control would warrant them the same sainthood, but ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, from what I can tell is a wanton , polygamous unatural disposition, beyond any normal sɛҳuąƖ urges. That doesn't sound like God would create that, maybe allow it because of the sins of the world.But does God still love them? Of course.
    The exorcists say ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a form of demon possession. ( Asmodeus?)
    Living a life of chastity can also open up someone to become a saint. 

    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #70 on: May 24, 2018, 09:45:22 PM »
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  • He didn't say it's OK to commit the sin of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, but he didn't say that it isn't OK either.  That's the problem with Bergoglio; he likes to stir the pope and causes chaos.  He needs to make that clear when saying things like this to avoid scandal ... except that Bergoglio revels in causing scandal.  There's something very sick and twisted and diabolical about that.
    NO, the young person who quoted him didn't say that.


    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #71 on: May 24, 2018, 09:48:03 PM »
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  • Yes, and that has nothing to do with what I said. God could permit something bad to happen to a child, but there is ZERO proof that people are born homo. ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is a disorder, and I think we can be fairly certain that  this poor guy was turned gαy by abuse. God does not create people with unnatural desires.
    At a certain point it doesn't matter whether some one is born with a proclivity or if they were induced to it somehow. God loves the person with a special love. It is up to us to respond to that love by living the holiness (that means chastity according to our state in life) that He calls us to.    

    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #72 on: May 24, 2018, 09:57:15 PM »
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  • He does this so people like poche can justify their defense of his indefensible behavior.  Jimmy Akin does the same thing.  It is designed to neutralize opposition from the right.
    There should be no objection on a Catholic forum for someone to live a life of chastity.

    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #73 on: May 24, 2018, 10:00:58 PM »
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  • Precisely.  Bergoglio is as clever as a serpent.  So while his intended message gets out to the left (there is no hell, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is OK, remarriage is OK, etc.) ... the right defends him due to lack of proof.
    The person who accused the Pope of saying that there is no Hell later on admitted that he lied and that the Pope never said any such thing.
    Those hwo carry the cross of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity are loved by God with a special love. It is up to them to respond to that love by living the chastity that their state in life requires.
    Remarriage is ok if it can be determined that the first union was null. 

    Offline poche

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gαy man "God made you like this"
    « Reply #74 on: May 24, 2018, 10:02:40 PM »
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  • Exactly.  If someone were falsely telling the world I said that hell doesn't exist, I would come out with a public denial IMMEDIATELY.
    The person who made that comment later on publicly admitted to having lied about that comment.