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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Cantarella on May 19, 2014, 04:09:59 PM

Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Cantarella on May 19, 2014, 04:09:59 PM: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Matto on May 19, 2014, 04:16:33 PM: Maybe he means that protestants and the "orthodox" are members of the Roman Catholic Church.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: 2Vermont on May 19, 2014, 04:20:37 PM: He never says the Catholic Church. He always says "the Church".

Which we all know doesn't mean the Catholic Church solely since VII.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: s2srea on May 19, 2014, 04:30:32 PM: Quote from: 2Vermont
He never says the Catholic Church. He always says "the Church".

Which we all know doesn't mean the Catholic Church solely since VII.

Exactly, he even says: "We entered the Church through baptism: there we are Christians,”

As far as he's concerned, the Church is comprised of all baptized persons. He doesn't qualify his statement in saying that there is one Church of Jesus Christ, which is at odds with and stands contrary to the Protestant denominations.... because he doesn't believe it.

Whats further: he takes absolutely no time explaining that the Church is necessary for salvation. As far as he's concerned, you can be 'one of the club'. But if you're not, where's the importance of that?
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: soulguard on May 19, 2014, 04:36:09 PM: So what does he stand for? Other than hatred of genuine Catholics? Is he going to canonize the novus ordo missae? If so, then I am going SV.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: 2Vermont on May 19, 2014, 04:39:37 PM: But he's a "son of the Church"...... :rolleyes:
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: poche on May 19, 2014, 11:49:37 PM: Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: crossbro on May 20, 2014, 01:14:24 AM: Quote
As far as he's concerned, the Church is comprised of all baptized persons.

I agree.

Francis is saying that you have to belong to a church not The Church.

The only thing Francis omits is that he believes a church is also a ѕуηαgσgυє, a temple, a gathering, an atheist association or a space ship. And that also baptism includes a desire to be baptized or if a person would have desired to be baptized if only they were not stubborn.

This is why Francis would also say a good atheist also goes to heaven.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: crossbro on May 20, 2014, 01:16:18 AM: Quote from: poche
Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.

Only that is not what he said is it ? He groups all "Christians" into one category- anyone baptized regardless if they are members of the RCC or not.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: InfiniteFaith on May 20, 2014, 03:32:14 AM: Quote from: poche
Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.

This is something I have been contemplating a lot about lately. On one hand, it seems that protestants are Christians if they receive a valid Baptism. I say this because anyone can Baptize. So a protestant minister's Baptism would be valid and the person being Baptized would become apart of the Body of Christ. Do you agree at this point?

The thing i am not so sure about is whether or not a protestant makes it to Heaven upon dying. We know that not all Christianized people make it to Heaven, and that a protestant does not have a valid Sacrament of Reconciliation. So my question is, is confession necessary for Salvation if someone has committed mortal sin after Baptism? If so, how do you know? Also, what if a protestant never commits a mortal sin after Baptism?

Secondly, I know that we are required to go to confession and receive the Eucharist one time per year. But is that really expected of a protestant? I am wondering if a protestant would be culpable of a mortal sin for not receiving the sacraments of reconciliation and the Eucharist at least once a year. Remember that for a person to be fully culpable they must meet all of the requirements for a sin to be mortal. Also, if they are not aware, scripture tells us they will be "beaten lightly" for it.

Furthermore, if a protestant were to commit a mortal sin and then ask God for forgiveness then it seems he would have perfect/imperfect contrition. I understand that, as Catholics we are supposed to go to confession after committing mortal sin even if we have already received a perfect/imperfect contrition. How would this concept relate to a protestant who does not believe in confessional? Would he/she go to hell for the mortal sin without a confession? Or would they not be fully culpable for missing reconciliation for a mortal sin since they were not aware they needed it?

Lastly, I am aware that heretics go to hell (as taught by the Early Church Fathers). What exactly is a heretic? Would a normal layman in a protestant Church be considered a heretic? he may not even try to preach heresy himself. It may just be a matter of him listening to it. Not to mention, for a heretic to be fully culpable for the sin of heresy, he/she must meet the requirements for it to be a mortal sin.

So I am thinking it is possible for a protestant to go to Heaven under certain circuмstances. Although, I am not sure.

I am confident, that if a protestant is given the privilege to enter into purgatory, then the soul would have to pay back each and every sin since Baptism for the full duration. I say that since there would not exist any partial or full indulgence that could possibly be granted to the soul outside of the Catholic Church.

This has been my understanding of all of this up to this point. I could be wrong, but I don't know.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: TKGS on May 20, 2014, 07:02:49 AM: InfiniteFaith,

Baptism does incorporate a person into the Catholic Church provided the true form is used, ordinary water is used, and the person baptizing has the intention of doing as the Church does, i.e., wash away original sin.

Do Protestants have valid baptism? Many do.

Are those who are validly baptized members of the Church? They are until or unless the specifically and consciously reject the True Faith. For a time, a baptized Protestant may be invincibly ignorant of the Faith. When, precisely, they become culpable of the sin against the faith and against charity (i.e., become formally schismatic) is known to God, though we are to regard them as not members of the Church at any time because they do not clearly indicate their desire to be Catholics. This is also explains why the person baptized in the Novus Ordo may be regarded as Catholic even while, for a time, professing heresies that he thinks in ignorance to be the teaching of the Catholic Church.

But Saint Paul warns us that "them that are without, God will judge." (1 Cor. 5:13). We should not be eager to condemn them to hell, but we should, indeed, encourage them to find the True Faith in order to be sure that it is possible that their sins will not condemn them.

The problem with this topic is that the opening post manifestly claims that Bergoglio said something that he did not. We must remember that the Vatican II church does not believe that the "Church" is the Roman Catholic Church, for the Church of Christ merely "subsists" in the Catholic Church. For Bergoglio, "the Church" is much bigger than the Catholic Church.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Ladislaus on May 20, 2014, 07:51:45 AM: Having gone through 8 years of Jesuit education, I'm well acquainted with this line of thought. Allow me to translate. All he's trying to say is that being Christian is a social thing, that it means you need to belong to a society ... due to the social nature of man. We can't read anything more into this. He would undoubtedly say that people can belong to the Church in many different ways and that the Church subsists in the Catholic Church. There's nothing here that would contradict the V2 subsistence ecclesiology.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Ladislaus on May 20, 2014, 07:57:07 AM: Quote from: TKGS
Are those who are validly baptized members of the Church? They are until or unless the specifically and consciously reject the True Faith. For a time, a baptized Protestant may be invincibly ignorant of the Faith. When, precisely, they become culpable of the sin against the faith and against charity (i.e., become formally schismatic) is known to God, though we are to regard them as not members of the Church at any time because they do not clearly indicate their desire to be Catholics.

Upon reaching the age of reason, the infused supernatural virtues received through the Sacrament of Baptism need to be confirmed with a conscious acceptance of the Catholic faith. If this is absent at the age of reason, the infused theological virtues cannot continue on in the soul. Culpability is not at issue. If someone who has attained the age of reason does not consciously accept the Catholic faith, he cannot remain in a state of grace. Protestants cannot be saved. Those who are baptized, before they reach the age of reason, are actually Catholics. Once they become Protestants and cease to be Catholics, these graces are lost.

There's this mistaken notion out there that one has to actively sin against the faith to lose the faith. Faith can be missing due to a simple absence. If someone were to be baptized as an infant and then raised in a jungle by animists, upon reaching the age of reason and not consciously embracing the Catholic faith, the supernatural virtues fade away by a kind of atrophy.

A purely infused faith cannot exist except in those who lack the use of reason.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: MyrnaM on May 20, 2014, 08:07:25 AM: Proving once again, he is the "pope" of "One Size Fits ALL".
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Ladislaus on May 20, 2014, 08:10:09 AM: This idea that one has to commit an actual sin against the faith not to have faith is more of the modernist subjectivism at work.

All theologians teach that those endowed with reason must, at minimum, have explicit belief in God in order to be saved. Without that material minimum, there cannot be any supernatural faith. Most theologians hold that one must explicitly believe in the Holy Trinity and the central mysteries of the Incarnation, but I don't want to distract here by arguing that point.

So you have the case I mentioned above where the child is baptized as an infant, say, by some missionary, but then ends up being raised by some atheists in a jungle. Upon reaching the age of reason, that child has no explicit belief in God. Consequently, that child cannot have supernatural faith. And this has nothing to do with whether or not he committed an actual sin against the faith. There's a necessary requirement for supernatural faith missing.

With Protestants, upon reaching the age of reason and not embracing the Catholic Faith, they fail to have the supernatural motive of faith and therefore their supernatural faith fades away.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: TKGS on May 20, 2014, 08:35:49 AM: Quote from: Ladislaus
There's this mistaken notion out there that one has to actively sin against the faith to lose the faith.

You are absolutely correct. I did not intend to imply that simple ignorance of the Faith actually saves. We must act as if the individual is outside the Church when he does not clearly profess the Catholic Faith and indicate his intention of being a part of the Catholic Church. On the other hand, the culpability of his schism may not exist due to whether or not he has the ability to reason through the issue. This is why Saint Paul said that God will judge those outside.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: crossbro on May 20, 2014, 08:56:39 AM: I am certain that a follow up statement is on the way once he realizes he has offended so many of the unfaithful just like he did when Limbaugh came out swinging against him over his foolish comments on capitalism.

And just like he did not do when he said atheists go to heaven and we must open the door wide to homos- he offended many, but not the people he gives a damn about, meaning the faithful.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 20, 2014, 12:38:28 PM: .

crossbro is correct -- Francis did not actually say what this quoted website has for a headline. The words of the headline are found nowhere in the words of Francis quoted in the article. How headlines can be legal when they are obviously fabrications is another story, maybe 'freedom of the press'?

Yellow journalism?

Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: poche
Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.

Only that is not what he said is it ? He groups all "Christians" into one category- anyone baptized regardless if they are members of the RCC or not.

A few of the 237 comments (so far) are noteworthy:

Mommie Dearest · Works at Disabled
being a former Catholic I find this appalling. I left the Catholic Church because of the contradictions that I found and what they teach vs what the word says. I was 14 and my eyes were opened. I am a follower of christ and see the falseness of this mans talk
Reply ·

· 79 · May 16 at 9:43pm

Mark Crowder · Top Commenter · Dickson County High School
I'm very happy for you! mommie, I'm a born again christian and it's astonishing. at how many people follow this man? God Bless You!
Reply ·

· 40 · May 16 at 9:58pm
Jimmy Usis · Top Commenter · Works at MI6
Mommie, I was 42 when I left The Catholic Church, and this man (the Pope) is of Satan! and so is the R.C. Church.
Reply ·

· 34 · May 17 at 4:08am
howjanmeg (signed in using yahoo)
What you actually left was the Novus Ordo, the satanic sect that has infiltrated the Vatican structures and hierarchy, usurping true Catholic authority and replacing it with a counterfeit "church" that claims to be Catholic, but obviously is not. This was prophesied to occur through history by Catholic mystics.

Through my studies I have come to believe that Bergoglio is most likely THE Antichrist.....what is only lacking now is a mortal wound for him to be "healed" from. He is heading Israel soon and has actually stated he will not use the bullet-proof anti-popemobile, so a "double-tap" to the head, ala JFK style, is what I am expecting.

Though Bergoglio [couldn't] care less about the dogma "outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation;" in this context he is trying to put the finishing touches on the coming final deception where all men who are not traditional Catholics and true Christians will receive the mark and be subject to the new Emperor, the Red Dragon, and his King, the Antichrist. All others will probably be starved or killed outright by non-worship of the Antichrist.

You protestants had better wake up soon, because 500 years of drinking Luther's satanic "koolaid" is not the doctrine of Jesus Christ. Luther's "doctrine" came from the devil while Luther was sitting on the toilet (Luther's own words). The devil won Luther over to his point of view in conversation, and Luther even hurled his own excrement at the devil at times during these conversations. Luther said that a person could commit murder and adultery/fornication 1000 times a day and not lose his justification. And folks can't reject Luther as the father of your sect, as HE IS the father of all the initial breakaway sects and those that have further splintered from the rebel sects.

Because of protestantism and the rise of atheism, we are getting closer to the Apocalypse, not further away from it.

One faith, one Lord, one baptism (one doctrine, one Church)
Reply ·
· 21 · May 17 at 6:44am
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 20, 2014, 12:43:21 PM: .

TKGS is correct, the headline is a fake. Francis did not use those words. The headline says something that Francis would NEVER say (imho), and his words in the article give credibility to that thesis.

Quote from: TKGS
InfiniteFaith,

The problem with this topic is that the opening post manifestly claims that Bergoglio said something that he did not. We must remember that the Vatican II church does not believe that the "Church" is the Roman Catholic Church, for [THEY SAY] the Church of Christ merely "subsists" in the Catholic Church. For Bergoglio, "the Church" is much bigger than the Catholic Church.

I have to laugh at how stupid the bishops were at Vat.II when this lousy deception was allowed to pass. There is literally no excuse for it. It was diabolical disorientation at its worst.

Every bishop there was trained in the philosophy of the Church and each one of them knew the consequences of playing fast and loose with definitions and each one of them knew the insurmountable importance of the verb "TO BE" when it comes to identifying the Church.

Even so, they failed to re-affirm that the Church of Christ is the Catholic Church, and what they approved was the idea of a Protestant observer which says, "The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church" (LG 8).

There can be no mistake, and it is absolutely, infallibly certain, that the IMMEDIATE CONSEQUENCE of this abomination called Lumen Gentium 8 was, that Catholics worldwide started saying "You see! There IS salvation outside the Church!!" This is an historical FACT and it cannot be denied. Priests went all over the world giving "missions" in which their new message was, effectively, that it is now okay for Catholics to deny defined dogma of the Church.

The hell it is.

When Lumen Gentium was released in the year of Our Lord 1964, it was the eve of the first anniversary of the assassination of JFK, that is, it was November 21st. It's possible that Catholics in America were thinking a lot more about having lost their first Catholic President than they were thinking about how one of the seven vials of the Apocalypse was being poured out on the planet by way of this abomination called "Lumen Gentium" (light of nations -- but it was DARKNESS).

.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Charlemagne on May 20, 2014, 12:46:31 PM: Quote from: poche
Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.

Yes, we all know that he's a brilliant theologian. :rolleyes:
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 20, 2014, 01:00:38 PM: .

It's kind of cute, actually, that here we are looking at a cheap headline that some nitwit journalist wrote, which is more objectively true than the words of the Pope found inside the attached article.

A reporter, that is, who isn't even Catholic (correct?) has more Catholic sense in his little finger than the head of the Church has in his whole head.

What did Our Lord say, again? Let's see..............

If you don't praise him, the rocks are gonna cry out, "Glory and Honor! Glory and Honor! Ain't got time to die!" (Actually, them are lyrics from a Negro Spiritual.)

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/KRcC5lxb2lM[/youtube]

.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 20, 2014, 01:24:26 PM: .

Who was that masked man?

About the Author: NTEB News Desk
NTEB is run by end times author and editor-in-chief Geoffrey Grider. Geoffrey runs a successful web design company, and is a full-time minister of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In addition to running NOW THE END BEGINS, he hosts a twice-weekly bible study and prophecy radio show on BlogTalk Radio, and oversees a dynamic street preaching outreach and tract ministry team in Saint Augustine, FL.

Hello, my name is Geoffrey Grider... Pleased to meet you. I'm a rock.

(P.S. St. Peter is the rock upon which Christ built His Church, so what's happened to the rock lately?)
(P.P.S. St. Augustine FL is the site of the OLDEST CATHOLIC CHURCH in the New World. St. Augustine was the first European settlement in America where a church was built, and it was Catholic, because the Protestants were not organized enough yet to go and settle anything overseas.)

.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Cantarella on May 20, 2014, 01:39:09 PM: Quote
There can be no mistake, and it is absolutely, infallibly certain, that the IMMEDIATE CONSEQUENCE of this abomination called Lumen Gentium 8 was, that Catholics worldwide started saying "You see! There IS salvation outside the Church!!" This is an historical FACT and it cannot be denied. Priests went all over the world giving "missions" in which their new message was, effectively, that it is now okay for Catholics to deny defined dogma of the Church.

The hell it is.

When Lumen Gentium was released in the year of Our Lord 1964, it was the eve of the first anniversary of the assassination of JFK, that is, it was November 21st. It's possible that Catholics in America were thinking a lot more about having lost their first Catholic President than they were thinking about how one of the seven vials of the Apocalypse was being poured out on the planet by way of this abomination called "Lumen Gentium" (light of nations -- but it was DARKNESS).

Every single modern evil within and out The Church comes from the denial of the salutary dogma of " Extra Eclesiam Nulla Salus" which the Church had actively protected for almost 2000 years. The Church solemnly defended that in order to get to Heaven, one must be a validly baptized Catholic. This truth is exclusive and cannot change. There is no possible salvation for non- Catholics. To say otherwise is to be either a misguided, misinformed soul, or a modernist (culpable or inculpable).

Agreed that it must have been diabolical disorientation as its worst and it continues to this day, even within the Church Herself.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 20, 2014, 01:43:28 PM: Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

Even when Francis (who is quite capable of speaking with common sense, he just chooses not to) goes OUT O' MY WAY! (see embedded video, above) to NOT say what he should be saying, while he gets ever-so-close to saying it (he's no doubt thinking it, so he's trying to say something not quite IT but close TO it), what happens?

Actually, he asked that question about aliens getting baptized, of all the idiot excuses for something to say -- he was trying to make a joke, apparently, but a comedian, he's NOT -- and the street preacher supervisor put it into the same article. Interesting, no?

What would happen?

What would happen when the pope ........ uh, sorry, the bishop of Rome tries NOT to say what he should be saying? (Hint: it has nothing to do with aliens from outer space being baptized.)

What would happen?

What would happen when the rock upon which Christ built His church fails to praise Jesus? HMMM?

What would happen?

What would happen when preachers of the world are paying close attention and while they don't want to be Catholic they cannot help but hear the message that the bishop of Rome SHOULD be saying?

What would happen?

The ROCKS' gonna cry out!
That's what would happen!
That's what would happen!
Ain't got time to die!

.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Ladislaus on May 20, 2014, 01:43:39 PM: I always found the term "New Evangelization" to be mysterious. When I dug into the concept (as it appears in JP2), it refers to evangelizing people in a way that does not involve conversion to Catholicism.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Neil Obstat on May 20, 2014, 02:00:49 PM: Quote from: Ladislaus

I always found the term "New Evangelization" to be mysterious. When I dug into the concept (as it appears in JP2), it refers to evangelizing people in a way that does not involve conversion to Catholicism.

When you heard the term "New Evangelization," you have found it mysterious.
You have received the grace not to lap it up like a lap dog.
You have prayed and studied, you have found the truth.
It has nothing to do with evangelization, any more than 'evangelicals' do.
It is the devil's agenda: ABT (Anything But the Truth).

Quote

Every single modern evil within the Church comes from the denial of the salutary dogma of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" which the Church had actively protected for almost 2000 years. The Church solemnly defended that in order to get to Heaven, one must be a validly baptized Catholic. This truth is exclusive and cannot change. There is no possible salvation for non-Catholics.

It is only because of the growing acceptance of the devil's ABT agenda that anyone has this heresy in mind in the first place. All of the errors consequent to Vat.II and its unclean spirit are traceable to this one heresy, the denial of EENS.

This error was creeping in, subtly during WWII, and began to rise to the surface right in the middle of the reign of Pope Pius XII, and like Leo XIII, he was weak; he did not slam on the brakes. He let it slide. And the Catholics who cried to him for his assistance got the proverbial cold shoulder. He appointed Bugnini, who survived him by 10 years and more, and then he died, and the rest is history.

.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Capt McQuigg on May 20, 2014, 02:24:49 PM: Quote from: poche
Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.

Agreed!

But both me and you know he didn't actually say that.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Capt McQuigg on May 20, 2014, 02:54:37 PM: Quote from: Ladislaus
Having gone through 8 years of Jesuit education, I'm well acquainted with this line of thought. Allow me to translate. All he's trying to say is that being Christian is a social thing, that it means you need to belong to a society ... due to the social nature of man. We can't read anything more into this. He would undoubtedly say that people can belong to the Church in many different ways and that the Church subsists in the Catholic Church. There's nothing here that would contradict the V2 subsistence ecclesiology.

This is right.

This sums up the post-Vatican II popes very succinctly!
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: TKGS on May 20, 2014, 04:19:26 PM: Quote from: Ladislaus
I always found the term "New Evangelization" to be mysterious. When I dug into the concept (as it appears in JP2), it refers to evangelizing people in a way that does not involve conversion to Catholicism.

Michael Voris actually has a video out recently in which he says that the "New Evangelization" was intended by Wojtyla to be a call to evangelize fallen away Catholics and bring them back to the Church.

Well, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, even if he doesn't realize it. The New Evangelization was about evangelizing people who have the Catholic Faith and bring them to the Conciliar religion, which, as you note above, does not necessarily involve conversion to Catholicism.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: InfiniteFaith on May 20, 2014, 06:08:17 PM: Quote from: TKGS
InfiniteFaith,

Baptism does incorporate a person into the Catholic Church provided the true form is used, ordinary water is used, and the person baptizing has the intention of doing as the Church does, i.e., wash away original sin.

Do Protestants have valid baptism? Many do.

Are those who are validly baptized members of the Church? They are until or unless the specifically and consciously reject the True Faith. For a time, a baptized Protestant may be invincibly ignorant of the Faith. When, precisely, they become culpable of the sin against the faith and against charity (i.e., become formally schismatic) is known to God, though we are to regard them as not members of the Church at any time because they do not clearly indicate their desire to be Catholics. This is also explains why the person baptized in the Novus Ordo may be regarded as Catholic even while, for a time, professing heresies that he thinks in ignorance to be the teaching of the Catholic Church.

But Saint Paul warns us that "them that are without, God will judge." (1 Cor. 5:13). We should not be eager to condemn them to hell, but we should, indeed, encourage them to find the True Faith in order to be sure that it is possible that their sins will not condemn them.

The problem with this topic is that the opening post manifestly claims that Bergoglio said something that he did not. We must remember that the Vatican II church does not believe that the "Church" is the Roman Catholic Church, for the Church of Christ merely "subsists" in the Catholic Church. For Bergoglio, "the Church" is much bigger than the Catholic Church.

Remember though that the protestant must meet all of the requirements of mortal sin to be fully culpable. So if he/she rejected the True Faith but did not meet all of the requirements then they would be beaten lightly (in purgatory).
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: 2Vermont on May 20, 2014, 06:38:45 PM: Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Ladislaus
I always found the term "New Evangelization" to be mysterious. When I dug into the concept (as it appears in JP2), it refers to evangelizing people in a way that does not involve conversion to Catholicism.

Michael Voris actually has a video out recently in which he says that the "New Evangelization" was intended by Wojtyla to be a call to evangelize fallen away Catholics and bring them back to the Church.

Well, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, even if he doesn't realize it. The New Evangelization was about evangelizing people who have the Catholic Faith and bring them to the Conciliar religion, which, as you note above, does not necessarily involve conversion to Catholicism.

Very good TKGS. I never thought of it like that.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: soulguard on May 21, 2014, 02:51:34 PM: Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

If he said this, then it is a step on the road to declaring the SSPX schismatic and not Christian, perhaps to force them to integrate into the faithless ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ infested hierarchy of the vatican.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Capt McQuigg on May 21, 2014, 03:44:12 PM: Quote from: soulguard
Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

If he said this, then it is a step on the road to declaring the SSPX schismatic and not Christian, perhaps to force them to integrate into the faithless ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ infested hierarchy of the vatican.

I think Francis would like to officially declare the SSPX as schismatic while still embracing protestants as "brothers in Christ".

Then again, we may be reading too much into some crackpot protestant website ran by lunatics.
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: Capt McQuigg on May 21, 2014, 04:20:31 PM: Quote from: InfiniteFaith
Quote from: TKGS
InfiniteFaith,

Baptism does incorporate a person into the Catholic Church provided the true form is used, ordinary water is used, and the person baptizing has the intention of doing as the Church does, i.e., wash away original sin.

Do Protestants have valid baptism? Many do.

Are those who are validly baptized members of the Church? They are until or unless the specifically and consciously reject the True Faith. For a time, a baptized Protestant may be invincibly ignorant of the Faith. When, precisely, they become culpable of the sin against the faith and against charity (i.e., become formally schismatic) is known to God, though we are to regard them as not members of the Church at any time because they do not clearly indicate their desire to be Catholics. This is also explains why the person baptized in the Novus Ordo may be regarded as Catholic even while, for a time, professing heresies that he thinks in ignorance to be the teaching of the Catholic Church.

But Saint Paul warns us that "them that are without, God will judge." (1 Cor. 5:13). We should not be eager to condemn them to hell, but we should, indeed, encourage them to find the True Faith in order to be sure that it is possible that their sins will not condemn them.

The problem with this topic is that the opening post manifestly claims that Bergoglio said something that he did not. We must remember that the Vatican II church does not believe that the "Church" is the Roman Catholic Church, for the Church of Christ merely "subsists" in the Catholic Church. For Bergoglio, "the Church" is much bigger than the Catholic Church.

Remember though that the protestant must meet all of the requirements of mortal sin to be fully culpable. So if he/she rejected the True Faith but did not meet all of the requirements then they would be beaten lightly (in purgatory).

I think that rejecting the True Faith is a mortal sin. The operational word is "rejected" and not "was unaware of".
Title: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church
Post by: ThomisticPhilosopher on May 22, 2014, 11:35:37 PM: I would love to baptize big green men :roll-laugh2:.

On a more serious note, I tend to agree with what he said if it is understood in its plain and literal sense, what was heretical of what he wrote. Maybe I am missing something?