Author Topic: Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church (Read 3411 times)

Cantarella · « **on:** May 19, 2014, 04:09:59 PM »

Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

Matto · « **Reply #1 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:16:33 PM »

Maybe he means that protestants and the "orthodox" are members of the Roman Catholic Church.

2Vermont · « **Reply #2 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:20:37 PM »

He never says the Catholic Church. He always says "the Church".

Which we all know doesn't mean the Catholic Church solely since VII.

s2srea · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:30:32 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

He never says the Catholic Church. He always says "the Church".

Which we all know doesn't mean the Catholic Church solely since VII.

Exactly, he even says: "We entered the Church through baptism: there we are Christians,”

As far as he's concerned, the Church is comprised of all baptized persons. He doesn't qualify his statement in saying that there is one Church of Jesus Christ, which is at odds with and stands contrary to the Protestant denominations.... because he doesn't believe it.

Whats further: he takes absolutely no time explaining that the Church is necessary for salvation. As far as he's concerned, you can be 'one of the club'. But if you're not, where's the importance of that?

soulguard · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:36:09 PM »

So what does he stand for? Other than hatred of genuine Catholics? Is he going to canonize the novus ordo missae? If so, then I am going SV.

2Vermont · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2014, 04:39:37 PM »

But he's a "son of the Church"...... :rolleyes:

poche · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2014, 11:49:37 PM »

Quote from: Cantarella

Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.

crossbro · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2014, 01:14:24 AM »

Quote

As far as he's concerned, the Church is comprised of all baptized persons.

I agree.

Francis is saying that you have to belong to a church not The Church.

The only thing Francis omits is that he believes a church is also a ѕуηαgσgυє, a temple, a gathering, an atheist association or a space ship. And that also baptism includes a desire to be baptized or if a person would have desired to be baptized if only they were not stubborn.

This is why Francis would also say a good atheist also goes to heaven.

crossbro · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2014, 01:16:18 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.

Only that is not what he said is it ? He groups all "Christians" into one category- anyone baptized regardless if they are members of the RCC or not.

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2014, 03:32:14 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: Cantarella
Pope Francis Says Christians Do Not Exist Outside The Roman Catholic Church

http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/blog/?p=21558

In the midst of general confusion, what is one to think about this?

Is it a deliberate attempt to further confuse people? throw the occasional bone at conservatives? the result of more ambiguity? a genuine advance in the right direction of EENS?

In any case, Protestants are not happy about this one.

Thoughts?

He is right. True Christianity cannot exist outside of the Catholic Church.

This is something I have been contemplating a lot about lately. On one hand, it seems that protestants are Christians if they receive a valid Baptism. I say this because anyone can Baptize. So a protestant minister's Baptism would be valid and the person being Baptized would become apart of the Body of Christ. Do you agree at this point?

The thing i am not so sure about is whether or not a protestant makes it to Heaven upon dying. We know that not all Christianized people make it to Heaven, and that a protestant does not have a valid Sacrament of Reconciliation. So my question is, is confession necessary for Salvation if someone has committed mortal sin after Baptism? If so, how do you know? Also, what if a protestant never commits a mortal sin after Baptism?

Secondly, I know that we are required to go to confession and receive the Eucharist one time per year. But is that really expected of a protestant? I am wondering if a protestant would be culpable of a mortal sin for not receiving the sacraments of reconciliation and the Eucharist at least once a year. Remember that for a person to be fully culpable they must meet all of the requirements for a sin to be mortal. Also, if they are not aware, scripture tells us they will be "beaten lightly" for it.

Furthermore, if a protestant were to commit a mortal sin and then ask God for forgiveness then it seems he would have perfect/imperfect contrition. I understand that, as Catholics we are supposed to go to confession after committing mortal sin even if we have already received a perfect/imperfect contrition. How would this concept relate to a protestant who does not believe in confessional? Would he/she go to hell for the mortal sin without a confession? Or would they not be fully culpable for missing reconciliation for a mortal sin since they were not aware they needed it?

Lastly, I am aware that heretics go to hell (as taught by the Early Church Fathers). What exactly is a heretic? Would a normal layman in a protestant Church be considered a heretic? he may not even try to preach heresy himself. It may just be a matter of him listening to it. Not to mention, for a heretic to be fully culpable for the sin of heresy, he/she must meet the requirements for it to be a mortal sin.

So I am thinking it is possible for a protestant to go to Heaven under certain circuмstances. Although, I am not sure.

I am confident, that if a protestant is given the privilege to enter into purgatory, then the soul would have to pay back each and every sin since Baptism for the full duration. I say that since there would not exist any partial or full indulgence that could possibly be granted to the soul outside of the Catholic Church.

This has been my understanding of all of this up to this point. I could be wrong, but I don't know.

TKGS · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2014, 07:02:49 AM »

InfiniteFaith,

Baptism does incorporate a person into the Catholic Church provided the true form is used, ordinary water is used, and the person baptizing has the intention of doing as the Church does, i.e., wash away original sin.

Do Protestants have valid baptism? Many do.

Are those who are validly baptized members of the Church? They are until or unless the specifically and consciously reject the True Faith. For a time, a baptized Protestant may be invincibly ignorant of the Faith. When, precisely, they become culpable of the sin against the faith and against charity (i.e., become formally schismatic) is known to God, though we are to regard them as not members of the Church at any time because they do not clearly indicate their desire to be Catholics. This is also explains why the person baptized in the Novus Ordo may be regarded as Catholic even while, for a time, professing heresies that he thinks in ignorance to be the teaching of the Catholic Church.

But Saint Paul warns us that "them that are without, God will judge." (1 Cor. 5:13). We should not be eager to condemn them to hell, but we should, indeed, encourage them to find the True Faith in order to be sure that it is possible that their sins will not condemn them.

The problem with this topic is that the opening post manifestly claims that Bergoglio said something that he did not. We must remember that the Vatican II church does not believe that the "Church" is the Roman Catholic Church, for the Church of Christ merely "subsists" in the Catholic Church. For Bergoglio, "the Church" is much bigger than the Catholic Church.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2014, 07:51:45 AM »

Having gone through 8 years of Jesuit education, I'm well acquainted with this line of thought. Allow me to translate. All he's trying to say is that being Christian is a social thing, that it means you need to belong to a society ... due to the social nature of man. We can't read anything more into this. He would undoubtedly say that people can belong to the Church in many different ways and that the Church subsists in the Catholic Church. There's nothing here that would contradict the V2 subsistence ecclesiology.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2014, 07:57:07 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

Are those who are validly baptized members of the Church? They are until or unless the specifically and consciously reject the True Faith. For a time, a baptized Protestant may be invincibly ignorant of the Faith. When, precisely, they become culpable of the sin against the faith and against charity (i.e., become formally schismatic) is known to God, though we are to regard them as not members of the Church at any time because they do not clearly indicate their desire to be Catholics.

Upon reaching the age of reason, the infused supernatural virtues received through the Sacrament of Baptism need to be confirmed with a conscious acceptance of the Catholic faith. If this is absent at the age of reason, the infused theological virtues cannot continue on in the soul. Culpability is not at issue. If someone who has attained the age of reason does not consciously accept the Catholic faith, he cannot remain in a state of grace. Protestants cannot be saved. Those who are baptized, before they reach the age of reason, are actually Catholics. Once they become Protestants and cease to be Catholics, these graces are lost.

There's this mistaken notion out there that one has to actively sin against the faith to lose the faith. Faith can be missing due to a simple absence. If someone were to be baptized as an infant and then raised in a jungle by animists, upon reaching the age of reason and not consciously embracing the Catholic faith, the supernatural virtues fade away by a kind of atrophy.

A purely infused faith cannot exist except in those who lack the use of reason.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #13 on:** May 20, 2014, 08:07:25 AM »

Proving once again, he is the "pope" of "One Size Fits ALL".

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** May 20, 2014, 08:10:09 AM »

This idea that one has to commit an actual sin against the faith not to have faith is more of the modernist subjectivism at work.

All theologians teach that those endowed with reason must, at minimum, have explicit belief in God in order to be saved. Without that material minimum, there cannot be any supernatural faith. Most theologians hold that one must explicitly believe in the Holy Trinity and the central mysteries of the Incarnation, but I don't want to distract here by arguing that point.

So you have the case I mentioned above where the child is baptized as an infant, say, by some missionary, but then ends up being raised by some atheists in a jungle. Upon reaching the age of reason, that child has no explicit belief in God. Consequently, that child cannot have supernatural faith. And this has nothing to do with whether or not he committed an actual sin against the faith. There's a necessary requirement for supernatural faith missing.

With Protestants, upon reaching the age of reason and not embracing the Catholic Faith, they fail to have the supernatural motive of faith and therefore their supernatural faith fades away.