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Author Topic: Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right  (Read 2582 times)

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Offline procopius

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  • Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right and God isn't 'a magician with a magic wand'

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html

    Quote
    The theories of evolution and the Big Bang are real and God is not “a magician with a magic wand”, Pope Francis has declared.

    Speaking at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Pope made comments which experts said put an end to the “pseudo theories” of creationism and intelligent design that some argue were encouraged by his predecessor, Benedict XVI.

    Francis explained that both scientific theories were not incompatible with the existence of a creator – arguing instead that they “require it”.

    “When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.

    He added: “He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfilment.

    “The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the divine creator but, rather, requires it.

    “Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”

    The Catholic Church has long had a reputation for being anti-science – most famously when Galileo faced the inquisition and was forced to retract his “heretic” theory that the Earth revolved around the Sun.

    But Pope Francis’s comments were more in keeping with the progressive work of Pope Pius XII, who opened the door to the idea of evolution and actively welcomed the Big Bang theory. In 1996, John Paul II went further and suggested evolution was “more than a hypothesis” and “effectively proven fact”.

    Yet more recently, Benedict XVI and his close advisors have apparently endorsed the idea that intelligent design underpins evolution – the idea that natural selection on its own is insufficient to explain the complexity of the world. In 2005, his close associate Cardinal Schoenborn wrote an article saying “evolution in the sense of common ancestry might be true, but evolution in the neo-Darwinian sense – an unguided, unplanned process – is not”.

    Giovanni Bignami, a professor and president of Italy’s National Institute for Astrophysics, told the Italian news agency Adnkronos: “The pope’s statement is significant. We are the direct descendents from the Big Bang that created the universe. Evolution came from creation.

    Giulio Giorello, professor of the philosophy of science at Milan’s University degli Studi, told reporters that he believed Francis was “trying to reduce the emotion of dispute or presumed disputes” with science.

    Despite the huge gulf in theological stance between his tenure and that of his predecessor, Francis praised Benedict XVI as he unveiled a bronze bust of him at the academy's headquarters in the Vatican Gardens.

    “No one could ever say of him that study and science made him and his love for God and his neighbour wither,” Francis said, according to a translation by the Catholic News Service.

    “On the contrary, knowledge, wisdom and prayer enlarged his heart and his spirit. Let us thank God for the gift that he gave the church and the world with the existence and the pontificate of Pope Benedict.”


    So that's that.  He admits that he is an atheist.  Can we stop calling him Pope Francis now and move on?



    Offline Jehanne

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 10:29:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: procopius
    The Catholic Church has long had a reputation for being anti-science – most famously when Galileo faced the inquisition and was forced to retract his “heretic” theory that the Earth revolved around the Sun.


    Anyone can read Galileo's abjuration here:

    Quote
    1.  The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures.

    2.  The proposition that the earth is not the center of the world, nor immovable, but that it moves, and also with a diurnal action, is also absurd, philosophically false, and, theologically considered, at least erroneous in faith.


    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1630galileo.asp

    The above two censures are not equivalent, but, of course, the secular press, once again, misrepresents the Catholic Faith.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 11:02:57 AM »
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  • Quote
    “He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfilment. 


    Freemason talk right there. Not different from the deist masonic belief on the "Great Architect of the Universe" who created it and just set up "the clock". What an infiltrator!
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 12:15:18 PM »
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  • So before he says that God doesn't exist, and now says that God is not "able to do everything", thereby denying the omnipotence of God.

    When will this humiliation of the real Catholic Church end?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #4 on: October 28, 2014, 12:16:53 PM »
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  • Theologians believe that defection from the faith would cause a vacancy in the Holy See, but lesser known is the notion that defection from sanity would also cause a vacancy.  I think we're quickly approaching the latter being yet another argument for the sedevacantists.


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #5 on: October 28, 2014, 12:37:42 PM »
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  • You see where this is taking the Vatican 2 church, to practical atheistism.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #6 on: October 28, 2014, 01:23:06 PM »
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  • God  working through "The Principle" will put them back in their proper place regarding this issue. Perfect timing. Everything is lining up for "The Principle" releasing at Gods' perfect time.   :cool:
    "I Think it is Time Cathinfo Has a Public Profession of Belief." "Thank you for publicly affirming the necessity of believing, without innovations, all Infallibly Defined Dogmas of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

    Offline snowball

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #7 on: October 28, 2014, 01:26:00 PM »
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  • More sensationalist provocative headlines.
    what did he really say (as a matter of opinion only)

    - if the Big Bang happened, it required a Creator.
    - since it appears that life forms did not magically appear
    as in "poof!, here is man", "poof! here is cat", maybe God
    didn't just wave a magic wand and "poof! a hippopotamus!".
    still, requiring a Creator, who set forth the laws to establish
    His Creation.

    There is nothing provocative in what he said, only in the
    headline by the press.


    Offline OHCA

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #8 on: October 28, 2014, 02:00:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: snowball
    More sensationalist provocative headlines.
    what did he really say (as a matter of opinion only)

    - if the Big Bang happened, it required a Creator.
    - since it appears that life forms did not magically appear
    as in "poof!, here is man", "poof! here is cat", maybe God
    didn't just wave a magic wand and "poof! a hippopotamus!".
    still, requiring a Creator, who set forth the laws to establish
    His Creation.

    There is nothing provocative in what he said, only in the
    headline by the press.


    Nice try.  But it's going to be hard for you to bullshit around the "...able to do everything" clause.

    We have progressed from 1) there is no Catholic God; to 2) there is no God nor God spray but rather only three personas (maybe the stooges, muskateers, amigos--we'll be sure not to say Holy Trinity); to 3) NEITHER Catholic God, God, God spray, NOR Larry, Moe, and Curly, are ABLE to do everything.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 02:21:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Theologians believe that defection from the faith would cause a vacancy in the Holy See, but lesser known is the notion that defection from sanity would also cause a vacancy.  I think we're quickly approaching the latter being yet another argument for the sedevacantists.


    Actually Ladislaus we can sit back, relax and just read these threads, best arguments for sedevacantist and the threads here lately get better each day to prove our point of view.

    Welcome to the sede position, the truth will set you free.  
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    Offline Jehanne

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #10 on: October 28, 2014, 02:27:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: snowball
    More sensationalist provocative headlines.
    what did he really say (as a matter of opinion only)

    - if the Big Bang happened, it required a Creator.
    - since it appears that life forms did not magically appear
    as in "poof!, here is man", "poof! here is cat", maybe God
    didn't just wave a magic wand and "poof! a hippopotamus!".
    still, requiring a Creator, who set forth the laws to establish
    His Creation.

    There is nothing provocative in what he said, only in the
    headline by the press.


    Nice try.  But it's going to be hard for you to bull#### around the "...able to do everything" clause.

    We have progressed from 1) there is no Catholic God; to 2) there is no God nor God spray but rather only three personas (maybe the stooges, muskateers, amigos--we'll be sure not to say Holy Trinity); to 3) NEITHER Catholic God, God, God spray, NOR Larry, Moe, and Curly, are ABLE to do everything.


    And, the "Last Judgement -- A work in progress!"


    Offline cassini

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #11 on: October 28, 2014, 04:23:45 PM »
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  • Here is a more official version of what went on at the PAS meeting.

    http://visnews-en.blogspot.ie/2014/10/francis-in-pontifical-academy-of.html

    The Vatican Information Service is a news service, founded in the Holy See Press Office, that provides information about the Magisterium and the pastoral activities of the Holy Father and the Roman Curia...

    Francis in the Pontifical Academy of Sciences emphasises the responsibility of humanity in creation

    Vatican City, 27 October 2014 (VIS) – This morning the Holy Father attended the plenary session of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences held in the Casina Pio IV, during which he inaugurated a bust of Pope emeritus Benedict XVI, whom he described as “a great Pope. Great for the strength and penetration of his intelligence, great for his important contribution to theology, great for his love of the Church and of human beings, great for his virtue and religiosity”. He recalled that Benedict XVI was the first to invite a president of this Academy to participate in the Synod on new evangelisation, “aware of the importance of science in modern culture”.

    Pope Francis chose not to focus on the complex issue of the evolution of nature, the theme the Academy will consider during this session, emphasising however that “God and Christ walk with us and are also present in nature”. “When we read in Genesis the account of Creation, we risk imagining God as a magus, with a magic wand able to make everything. But it is not so. He created beings and allowed them to develop according to the internal laws that He gave to each one, so that they were able to develop and to arrive and their fullness of being. He gave autonomy to the beings of the Universe at the same time at which he assured them of his continuous presence, giving being to every reality. And so creation continued for centuries and centuries, millennia and millennia, until it became which we know today, precisely because God is not a demiurge or a conjurer, but the Creator who gives being to all things. The beginning of the world is not the work of chaos that owes its origin to another, but derives directly from a supreme Origin that creates out of love. The Big Bang, which nowadays is posited as the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine act of creating, but rather requires it. The evolution of nature does not contrast with the notion of Creation, as evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve”.

    He continued, “With regard to man, instead, there is a change and something new. When, on the sixth day of the account in Genesis, man is created, God gives the human being another autonomy, an autonomy that is different to that of nature, which is freedom. And he tells man to name everything and to go ahead through history. This makes him responsible for creation, so that he might dominate it in order to develop it until the end of time. Therefore the scientist, and above all the Christian scientist, must adopt the approach of posing questions regarding the future of humanity and of the earth, and, of being free and responsible, helping to prepare it and preserve it, to eliminate risks to the environment of both a natural and human nature. But, at the same time, the scientist must be motivated by the confidence that nature hides, in her evolutionary mechanisms, potentialities for intelligence and freedom to discover and realise, to achieve the development that is in the plan of the Creator. So, while limited, the action of humanity is part of God's power and is able to build a world suited to his dual corporal and spiritual life; to build a human world for all human beings and not for a group or a class of privileged persons. This hope and trust in God, the Creator of nature, and in the capacity of the human spirit can offer the researcher a new energy and profound serenity. But it is also true that the action of humanity – when freedom becomes autonomy – which is not freedom, but autonomy – destroys creation and man takes the place of the Creator. And this is the grave sin against God the Creator”, he concluded.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now that we have an official version of what the Pope said, we can now, like intelligent Catholic beings that we are, see his words in context.
    For many years I have studied everything I could read regarding faith and Science, so I can comment on the above objectively. I have coloured red the points of interest to me.

    '“When we read in Genesis the account of Creation, we risk imagining God as a magus, with a magic wand able to make everything. But it is not so. He created beings...'


    There is a contradiction here. If God created beings, then He is a magnus, crerating beings by His will alone and if I were a child I could say He did it with a wand (will), able to make everything.

    This shows me Pope Francis is like a person who really doesn't either know or care how he phrases things. Had he not said "He created things" I would be the first to shout heretic for God as Creator is dogma. But I cannot, he did not deny God created the world.

    His version of evolution thereafter fits in with everyone's knowledge of the micro-evolution that occurred, not macro evolution, micro-evolution, like wild-dogs ending up as poodles. Whether he meant macro (sponges becoming elephants) or not we do not know, but he did not state it here so cannot be said to have meant it.

    'The Big Bang, which nowadays is posited as the origin of the world, does not contradict the divine act of creating, but rather requires it. The evolution of nature does not contrast with the notion of Creation, as evolution presupposes the creation of beings that evolve”.'

    The word evolve appears again, but does not state macro or micro. Again we cannot assume he meant macro. But the Big Bang is something else.

    It is here we must examine his words carefully. As you all should know all such 'science' derives from Copernicanism, defined as formal heresy by Pope Paul V in 1616.
    Any science that derives from a heresy has to be false science.
    Trouble is, Catholic popes since 1741 have all allowed Copernicanism to be taught as biblical and truth, so they HAVE to accept the consequences of Copernicanism. To explain their solar system they extrapolated back to a Big Bang, approved by 'Traditional' Pope Pius XII as the creative act of God as revealed in the Bible.

    This, according to Marcello Pera, Professor of Philosophy at the University of Pisa Italy. He said

    " A Creator proved by cosmology is a cosmological agent."
    Tomorrow I will write up what he said about Pius XII, and now Francis, marriage of the creative act of God with the Big Bang. and his Big Bang.


    Offline ThomisticPhilosopher

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #12 on: October 28, 2014, 09:17:54 PM »
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  • I don't really see what the big deal here is, since Wojtyla and forward they have all accepted both in private, and one can even say more explicitly by not even allowing good Catholic creationist scientist to present their case. Not even one!

    Its an established fact, that they have accepted this as Dogma binding on Catholics, anyone who doesn't see that is blind. Now I know this especially, because since 14 years ago I had to fight off some pretty militant atheism so this is one of my specialty fields where I have done extensive reading. This was one of those things that really bothered me to no end, how was it that Wojtyla would so publicly teach that? The same goes with Ratzinger, the seed was planted initially with the religion of Man of that Montini taught to the Universal Church (I don't mean he had the authority, but as a statement of fact).

    I would be surprised if he did not hold those views, remember Bergoglio is a chemist so naturally as a natural scientist, its impossible not to be fed that garbage. Then add the fact that he was already a modernist with itching ears, even worse. Every Marxist takes as his philosophical base the big bang, and evolution. Without that their worldview collapses pathetically, this is why anyone that dares touch those two sacrosanct Dogma's is anathema. You will be ridiculed, scorned at, and generally be treated worse then an ape. To use the terminology of Ratzinger, "unenlightened."
    https://keybase.io/saintaquinas , has all my other verified accounts including PGP key plus BTC address for bitcoin tip jar. A.M.D.G.

    Offline Disputaciones

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #13 on: October 28, 2014, 09:42:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: ThomisticPhilosopher
    I don't really see what the big deal here is, since Wojtyla and forward they have all accepted both in private, and one can even say more explicitly by not even allowing good Catholic creationist scientist to present their case. Not even one!

    Its an established fact, that they have accepted this as Dogma binding on Catholics, anyone who doesn't see that is blind. Now I know this especially, because since 14 years ago I had to fight off some pretty militant atheism so this is one of my specialty fields where I have done extensive reading. This was one of those things that really bothered me to no end, how was it that Wojtyla would so publicly teach that? The same goes with Ratzinger, the seed was planted initially with the religion of Man of that Montini taught to the Universal Church (I don't mean he had the authority, but as a statement of fact).

    I would be surprised if he did not hold those views, remember Bergoglio is a chemist so naturally as a natural scientist, its impossible not to be fed that garbage. Then add the fact that he was already a modernist with itching ears, even worse. Every Marxist takes as his philosophical base the big bang, and evolution. Without that their worldview collapses pathetically, this is why anyone that dares touch those two sacrosanct Dogma's is anathema. You will be ridiculed, scorned at, and generally be treated worse then an ape. To use the terminology of Ratzinger, "unenlightened."


    Yes, this is nothing new, and it appears that way before Vatican 2 theistic evolution was already being taught in catholic schools.

    Offline CharlesII

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    Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right
    « Reply #14 on: October 31, 2014, 09:30:32 PM »
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  • Mike King of www.tomatobubble.com has a new, short book ridiculing Evolution and the Big Bang.  

    The God of Logic: Debunking Atheism