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Author Topic: Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized  (Read 1316 times)

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Offline bowler

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Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
« on: April 23, 2013, 08:17:35 PM »
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  • Predestination and Those That Die Unbaptized

    Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]


    In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through innumerable tests of his good will, with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and then God is be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul by His Mercy and in His Justice.


    The idea of salvation outside the Church is opposed to the Doctrine of Predestination. This Doctrine means that from all eternity God has known who were His own. It is for the salvation of these, His Elect, that Providence has directed, does direct, and will always direct, the affairs of men and the events of history. Nothing, absolutely nothing, that happens, has not been taken into account by the infinite God, and woven into that tapestry in which is written the history of the salvation of His saints. Central in this providential overlordship is the Church itself, which is the sacred implement which God devised for the rescuing of His beloved ones from the damnation decreed for those who would not. (Mt. 23:37).

    The Doctrine of Divine Election means that only certain individuals will be saved. They will be saved primarily because, in the inscrutable omniscience of God, only certain individuals out of all the human family will respond to the grace of salvation. In essence, this doctrine refers to what in terms of human understanding and vision, is before and after, the past, the present, and the future, but what in God is certain knowledge and unpreventable fact, divine action and human response.

    Calvin and others have made the mistake of believing that these words mean that predestination excludes human choice and dispenses from true virtue. Catholic doctrine explains simply that the foreknowledge of God precedes the giving of grace. It means, further, that, since without grace there can be no merit, and without merit no salvation, those who will be saved must be foreknown as saved by God, if they are to receive the graces necessary for salvation.

    Those who say there is salvation outside the Church (no matter how they say it) do not comprehend that those who are in the Church have been brought into it by the Father, through Christ the Savior, in fulfillment of His eternal design to save them. The only reason that God does not succeed in getting others into the Church must be found in the reluctant will of those who do not enter it. If God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it. There is absolutely no obstacle to the invincible God's achieving His designs, except the intractable wills of His children. Nothing prevents His using the skies for his billboard, and the clouds for lettering, or the rolling thunder for the proclamation of His word. (Indeed, for believers, He does just this: "The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands." I Ps. 18: 11. But for atheists the heavens have no message at all.) If poverty were the reason some do not believe, he could load them down with diamonds; if youth were the reason, He could make sure they grew to a hoary old age. If it were merely the want of information, put a library on their doorstep, or a dozen missionaries in their front room. Were it for a want of brains, he could give every man an I.Q. of three hundred: it would cost Him nothing.

    The idea that someone died before he was able to receive Baptism, suggests that God was unable to control events, so as to give the person time to enter the Church. If time made any difference, God could and would keep any person on earth a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand years.

    Thus, what is the meaning of this election? That from all eternity God has ordered the events of history, so that His Elect might have the grace of salvation. And how do they know of this election? By the fact that they are in the Church, through no deservingness of their own? They know of no reason why God should bestow this grace, the knowledge of the truth, and the willingness and power to believe it, upon them, while others, who seem more worthy, go without it. As regards His Elect, not only has God determined to bestow necessary grace, but also, all His actions in the world must be seen as part of His salvific plan. In a word, nothing that He does is unrelated to the salvation of His Beloved Sheep. Human history, apart from the glory of Holy Church, and the salvation of the Elect, and the punishment of the wicked, has little importance for almighty God. Yet, all these purposes are only a part of the manifestation of His glory.

    Those who speak of it have the problem of reconciling the mystery of Predestination with the idea of "baptism of desire." From all eternity, almighty God has known the fate of every soul. In His Providence, He has arranged for the entrance into the Church of certain millions of persons, and has seen to it that they receive the grace of faith, the Sacrament of Baptism, the grace of repentance, the forgiveness of their sins, and all the other requisites of salvation. According to The Attenuators, in the case of "non Catholic saints," and of those who died before they might receive Baptism, God was simply unable to see to these necessaries. Untoward and unforeseen circuмstances arose which prevented His providing these other millions with the means of salvation. Theirs is a story of supreme irony, that although the God of omniscience and omnipotence mastered the history of all nations and the course of every life, angelic and human, in the case of certain ones, His timing was off by just a few days, or hours, or minutes. It was His earlier intention to make sure that they received Baptism of water; He had it all planned out; but alas! on the particular day of their demise, His schedule was so full, that He simply could not get to them; for which reason, in that it was His fault, He is bound to provide an alternative instrumentality: "baptism of desire" is his substitute for the real thing!

    The Diluters of the Doctrine of Exclusive Salvation do not perceive the Pelagian tenor of their position, that some may be saved outside the Church through nothing but their good will. It is exactly because this is impossible  and, more important, offensive to God, that the notion must be
     rejected. We say impossible, because no man can save himself. The fact that every man must receive Baptism and thus enter the Church means that he is dependent upon God to make it possible for him to receive the Sacrament, and further, through this Sacrament, it is Christ Who acts to purge the sinner of his sins, and ingraft him into His Mystical Body. No individual can do this by himself. He is dependent upon another to pour the water and say the words, and he is dependent upon God to provide this minister, and to make the sacramental sign effective of grace. It is thus so that none may attribute his salvation to his own doing.
     
    Pride is the chief vice of man, as it was and is of the demons of Hell. It is pride more than any other fault that blinds men to the truth, that obstructs faith, and hardens their hearts to conversion from sin.

     The Doctrine of Predestination is that almighty God from all eternity both knew and determined who would be saved, that is, who would allow Him to save them. He would be the cause of their salvation, and, as there is no power that can even faintly obstruct or withstand Him, there is no power which can prevent His saving whom He wishes, except, of course, the man himself.


    Offline Jehanne

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 08:33:16 PM »
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  • http://www.cmri.org/02-children_baptism.html

    P.S.  I am not a sede, but the article is excellent.


    Offline bowler

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #2 on: April 24, 2013, 02:08:01 PM »
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  • What good is s thumbs down to my opening post? Does it mean that they don't believe in predestination as defined?

    Offline Incredulous

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 02:22:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    What good is s thumbs down to my opening post? Does it mean that they don't believe in predestination as defined?



    Probably just "neoSSPX Rahnerists" puruising the forum?
    They may have trouble articulating their opinions.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Stubborn

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #4 on: April 25, 2013, 02:35:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    What good is s thumbs down to my opening post? Does it mean that they don't believe in predestination as defined?



    Because the idea of salvation outside the Church is opposed to the Doctrine of  Predestination.

    Awesome OP btw.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Maizar

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #5 on: April 25, 2013, 04:18:28 AM »
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  • This is the age old argument between Jesuits vs. Dominicans.

    There has long been debate on the apparently mutually exclusive doctrines of predestination and free will. The OP doesn't resolve this problem. The Jєωs misunderstood predestination by their mistaken and pride ridden interpretation of their "chosenness" which Christ exposed as being false. The Muslims also continue to believe in predestination which gives their cults their fatalistic character.  But the actions of all people including Jєωs and Muslims shows that basically all of them believe they have free will.

    Why did Christ give such parables as that of the prodigal son, if an individual's salvation was completely externally determined? On the other hand the doctrine on free will is problematic as it can be taken to diminish God's power.

    To my understanding these only seem contradictory because of an underestimation of God's nature.

    Offline bowler

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #6 on: April 25, 2013, 02:07:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Maizar
    This is the age old argument between Jesuits vs. Dominicans.

    There has long been debate on the apparently mutually exclusive doctrines of predestination and free will. The OP doesn't resolve this problem.


    What is the "age old argument between Jesuits vs. Dominicans", and how does it apply to this thread?

    Offline Nishant

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #7 on: April 26, 2013, 06:18:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Maizar
    There has long been debate on the apparently mutually exclusive doctrines of predestination and free will.


    The apparent contradiction comes about because we may suppose freedom to be a kind of independence from God, rather than a perfect submission of our will to His, since He alone is perfectly free. In truth, the farther man goes from dependence upon God, in the order of both grace and nature, the less and less is he truly free.
     
    Concerning the works of man, even before but especially after justification, The Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian heretics thought, It is of man, therefore it is not of God. The Lutheran and Calvinist heretics went to the other extreme, It is of God, therefore it is not of man. The one asserted the merit was due entirely to man, the other that the will of man remained entirely passive and did nothing. Both were opposite heresies.

    What then is the answer, to the problem of divine predestination and human freedom? There is only one, in the order of both nature and grace, though in different ways, It is of God working through man. For both actual and sanctifying grace move the will, enable it whether from within or without, and work together with it.

    The state of the question in the Catholic Church also concerns the distinction between sufficient and efficacious grace. This distinction is universally used but its meaning is disputed among the different Catholic schools. The broad meaning of the terms is fairly self-explanatory, for example, Grace sufficient for contrition may be efficacious only for attrition. Moreover according to the statement of Holy Writ, God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved but only in the elect is this grace efficacious.

    Molinists maintain that there is no true distinction and grace is extrinsically efficacious - that is by human effort, when God gives sufficient grace, we can produce fruit in good works or not. Thomists rather teach that the grace of God is intrinsically efficacious, provided according to the dispositions in the soul perfectly foreseen by God, that is that the power to perform the good work meritoriously comes entirely from God and is realized through us as the branch bears fruit (according to the Savior's own parable) only by the power of the vine, it is the vine giving the life and strength, and giving this in union with the branch and interiorly, and different branches bear fruit in different degrees.

    Thus, every good work of the justified which is meritorious is to be attributed to God as first cause and to the individual as secondary cause. Moreover, the predestination both to grace and to glory is perfectly gratuitous on the part of God.

    Bowler's mistake in this regard, as seen on the other thread as well, of course is that he wishes to scrutinize the divine pleasure, to essentially ask "If God predestined me to be saved by baptism of water, how come he predestined so and so to be saved by baptism of desire?" but the answer to such a question rests solely in the good pleasure of the divine will, of which none other than the learned Doctor of Hippo said, "Why the divine will is so inclined, do not seek to judge, unless you wish to err". If God has predestined some to be saved in this way and others in that, according to the threefold baptism He instituted, it is not meet for us to ask why does He not predestine and save all through baptism of water or, what is worse still, to insist that He should do it in that way and in no other because that is what we think would be better.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline bowler

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #8 on: April 26, 2013, 03:00:21 PM »
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  • Quote
    Bowler's mistake in this regard, as seen on the other thread as well, of course is that he wishes to scrutinize the divine pleasure, to essentially ask "If God predestined me to be saved by baptism of water, how come he predestined so and so to be saved by baptism of desire?"


    Strawman.





    Quote
    If God has predestined some to be saved in this way and others in that, according to the threefold baptism He instituted, it is not meet for us to ask why does He not predestine and save all through baptism of water or, what is worse still, to insist that He should do it in that way and in no other because that is what we think would be better.


    That's just your opinion. There is not one authority that has ever claimed that God predestined people to be saved by BOD. (and moreover, go against all of the crystal clear language in dogmatic decrees on baptism and EENS)

    “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that ‘they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)


    Offline bowler

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    Predestination Those That Die Unbaptized
    « Reply #9 on: April 26, 2013, 03:11:01 PM »
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  • Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]

    God has already tested every man, in everyway, before they were even born into the place they were born. No one lives in a place "by accident", no one can claim that they died by accident, without a chance.

    Offline Stubborn

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    « Reply #10 on: April 28, 2013, 03:24:12 PM »
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  • 4. Reflexively, we react by saying: But what about the rest? How is it just of God to choose some and to reject others? There can be but one answer to such a question, though admittedly it does not satisfy us, for it is not fully comprehensible, not, that is, as comprehensible as we would like. The answer is that those have been chosen, who were foreknown to accept their election. If others are rejected, it is because quite freely they reject the grace which would be for their peace. - Fr. Wathen

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline bowler

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    « Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 12:18:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn

    4. Reflexively, we react by saying: But what about the rest? How is it just of God to choose some and to reject others? There can be but one answer to such a question, though admittedly it does not satisfy us, for it is not fully comprehensible, not, that is, as comprehensible as we would like. The answer is that those have been chosen, who were foreknown to accept their election. If others are rejected, it is because quite freely they reject the grace which would be for their peace. - Fr. Wathen



    Quote from: bowler
    Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]

    God has already tested every man, in everyway, before they were even born into the place they were born. No one lives in a place "by accident", no one can claim that they died by accident, without a chance.


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