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Author Topic: Pope Francis calls trads self-absorbed retrogrades  (Read 4009 times)

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Offline Capt McQuigg

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Pope Francis calls trads self-absorbed retrogrades
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2013, 04:03:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
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    However, before they began teaching this, the churches were doing MUCH better than today. The people left precisely because the Church did what these people are doing.


    Like I said, rightly or wrongly, this is a uniquely American perspective in my experience.  I only hear it from Americans (and sometime Australians).  

    European Catholics, in my experience, take a much longer view of the crisis in the Church, and as a result, they assign symptoms and causes much differently.  



    We Americans have to call it like we see it.  And we can be results oriented.  

    Europeans take a different route because they had a much different history and tradition and their more caste based systems over there lend a hand toward seeing things in a more rigid manner.  Regarding devotions and the Catholic Faith, does anyone have any before and after Vatican II statistics to bandy about regarding Europe?  I know that Ireland had a 90% weekly Mass attendance pre-Vatican II and now recently they had a calendar year in which not even one person was ordained.  I'm willing to bet that large parts of Europe were stagnant int he faith even pre-Vatican II.  Some souls are dark and rancid, and even the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church cannot pull them kicking and screaming into Eternity and Paradise.  It's just the way it is with human nature.

    I see the novus ordo's concept of "Evangelizing" as the pre-planned route that revolutionaries always take.  First they destroy the existing order, then go through a planned period of chaos (even the novus ordites bemoan the pitiful stage of catechesis in the Church - who do they think is in charge of catechesis?), then after a period of chaos where the overwhelmingly vast percentage of people do not have first hand memories of the past, then the revolutionaries come in with the concept of evangelizing but not as in the past.  They think they destroyed the church and not it is time to build the church of their own making.  

    Our Lord told the apostles to go and preach and baptise the nations of the world in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.  This new and deceitful form of "evangelizing" that Pope Francis is speaking of is directed toward lay person just as much as clerical.  It's as if the new church wants to continue to blurr the lines between lay and ordained.  A layman should not run around the world losing debates about theology of which he is poor at, he should be a husband to a devout Catholic wife and be the father or as many children as God grants him.  The Priesthood is to bring Christ in sacramental form to the Faithful.  And baptise those who are not baptised.  Compromise?  I wish priests and bishops and the pope would take Our Lord's word serious when He said that those who do not believe are condemned already.  Preach, if the hearer does not believe, don't change what you are saying to try to drag a rancid soul kicking and screaming into Eternity and Paradise.  Move on and preach to the souls that need to hear.  That's real evangelizing.

    And to think that my response to Pope Francis' slight was going to be:  "I can't comment on what he says because I'm too busy looking at myself in the mirror."  Get it?  Self-absorbed!  LOL!



    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Pope Francis calls trads self-absorbed retrogrades
    « Reply #31 on: December 26, 2013, 11:02:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus

    So, the attitude in Rome is just a bit more sophisticated that you are giving it credit for in this thread, and why not try to comprehend it?  If you comprehend it better, at least you can criticize it more effectively, right?


    Sorry you got a downvote; I tried to even it out. :) I think comprehending why Frank's methods are "working" for the world is a very important topic. Scary, but important. I don't think we can beat him, for one, because of human nature. Not being a Bible memoriser, but having a familiarity with It (I do capitalize the Word of God!), I believe Jesus and prophets before Him said people would want to hear the good things that make them happy. We (humans) are a fallen race, so we Tower of Babel it up (how many times have I seen that obnoxious photo on FB saying to stop using your hands to pray, and use them to build houses for the poor  :really-mad2:). People are literally hating a deity I think they actually believe in, while claiming they don't believe in God.

    I have no hard numbers on that, by the way; it's the way my atheist acquaintances can seem more holy (more "fertile ground-ish") than the Cafeterias (who are sure they stand because Mass 3x year). These atheists seem "holy" in the secular Frank way, like "let's put our noggins together and feed these poor!" But (unlike Frank), they seem to believe by identifying as 'atheists', because without God there is no reason for their self-appellation. I don't believe in Thor, but I don't have pages and posts dedicated to aThorism.

    Such atheists are possibly fertile ground, but definitely also dangerous ground, because I think they DO believe in God, but are angry at God and testing Him. Their questions #1, 2, 3, could be answered by the Ten Commandments, or Genesis 3, but they say they opt out because "how could God let a fall happen?" (I'll give atheists this: they know more about Catholicism than most catholics-little-c, by far. I'm talking about "thinking atheists" more than "wild child" paint-our-bodies-and-offend-for-fun "atheists", who are just crackheads with whom God will do with as He pleases.)

    So assuming many atheists are "fertile ground" (believers in God), yet also very dangerous (for our souls, since they hate God, and one has to be strong to discourse with them since I fear demons have taken up residence in some of them), they are simply rejecting The Fall of Man (exactly as Satan would have them do), and maybe thinking they're fine without God (again, exactly as Satan would have them do).

    If I understand the remainder of your post, then, the Wojtyla (which I can't read without the double-speak inducing quite a headache), and the Frank I can barely read without saying constant Acts of Contrition, is an attempt for the European church to re-capture the unFaith of the atheists in this lifetime. —But to what end?

    1. a hope they fall into the new church and get baptised and have a shot at Heaven?, or

    2. because the new church itself is asking the same questions as the atheists (eg, they hate God, too), or

    3. ???

    I do find it important to understand Frank's success, if only to understand and try to help the falling away to not fall away. It's not an easy thing to pronounce, "This world is doomed, but our destiny was always a more brilliant afterlife than we can imagine, but our deeds here, and our worship of God who visited His Creation, determines our afterlife." It used to be sort of common sense, but now it's seems like a foreign concept. (Common sense because of the Church; foreign now because of the little-c-church.)

    Quote from: icterus
    In this environment, Rome has decided on a course of evangelization which essentially skips over the supernatural wages of unbelief on the grounds that preaching Heaven and Hell didn't keep people in the Church against these things, how will it bring them back into the Church?


    And I think this is about the saddest (though truthful) statement of the 20th Century: the poor and bereft could visit Church at one point, and be filled with the spiritual gifts. Now, they can get a bowl of soup and a pamphlet about who to vote for. **sigh** (Act of Contrition AGAIN!) (I hope God doesn't tire of hearing that.)

    Regarding evangelizing, I think maybe we Catholics weren't evangelizing in the past (I can't know; wasn't here yet), but we may be doing it more now. To gather members. (Or at least we're trying.) Trying to see a silver lining here :) but I don't much recall a time when we weren't "evangelizing", though it was the Truth (go to Mass or go to Hell, put in a holier fashion I suppose). I'm not sure we were ever meant to NOT evangelize. (In fact, didn't Frank say he didn't believe in proselytizing a few months ago? And something about consciences being one's guide?) We're supposed to evangelize; maybe we'd gotten a bit stuffy, but again, I can't know that. Catholicism was the law of the land, then fell over the centuries to bad European philosophy, and here we are. :/

    Quote from: icterus

    So...I get what Rome is saying, and I see what they are trying to do.  I don't go along with calling Rome the 'seat of the antichrist'.


    Well, I'd agree with that only because Frank hasn't gotten around to selling the seat yet. But the desk is surely gone.
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ


    Offline crossbro

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    Pope Francis calls trads self-absorbed retrogrades
    « Reply #32 on: December 26, 2013, 11:28:33 PM »
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    think comprehending why Frank's methods are "working" for the world is a very important topic. Scary, but important.



    Maybe God is protecting us from "them" ?

    Can you imagine what "them" would do to the TLM if they had to swap NO for it tomorrow ?  :facepalm: