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Author Topic: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples  (Read 2239 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2020, 05:51:30 AM »
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  • Bergoglio's constant thumbing of his nose at Traditional Church teaching strongly suggests pertinacious formal heresy.  At one point he bragged and joked about being a heretic, and said he didn't care.  If that isn't a formal heretic, then I don't know what is.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #46 on: October 22, 2020, 05:56:45 AM »
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  • The claim that there is no hierarchy is false.  Bishops and priests without jurisdiction are still members of the hierarchy.

    It's similar to how theologians describe normal sedevacantist periods.  They say that during that time Our Lord supplies jurisdiction to the Church directly, vs. through an actual living pope.  That is why priests continue to validly hear Confessions and Bishops continue to appoint pastors, etc. ... all legitimately during a sedevacantist period.  In fact, there's precedent for bishops being consecrated and installed during sedevacantist periods.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #47 on: October 22, 2020, 06:42:37 AM »
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  • Bergoglio's constant thumbing of his nose at Traditional Church teaching strongly suggests pertinacious formal heresy.  At one point he bragged and joked about being a heretic, and said he didn't care.  If that isn't a formal heretic, then I don't know what is.
    That does seem like formal heresy, honestly.  Do you have a source for this?

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #48 on: October 22, 2020, 08:29:24 AM »
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  • That does seem like formal heresy, honestly.  Do you have a source for this?
    Can't find it, but it's a quote from years and years along the lines of "it springs to mind to speak something foolish, or perhaps a heresy, I don't know," followed by some diatribe about how "we all are one". Basically admitting his ecuмenism talk was perhaps heretical, but then proceeding to say it anyway.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #49 on: October 22, 2020, 08:48:44 AM »
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  • Bergoglio's constant thumbing of his nose at Traditional Church teaching strongly suggests pertinacious formal heresy.  At one point he bragged and joked about being a heretic, and said he didn't care.  If that isn't a formal heretic, then I don't know what is.
    Also joked to a young child about maybe seeing each other in Hell. 


    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #50 on: October 22, 2020, 08:59:48 AM »
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  • That does seem like formal heresy, honestly.  Do you have a source for this?
    If I remember correctly, clerics do not receive the benefit of the doubt as to being ignorant in cases of heresy. They are presumed guilty because they are presumed to know what the Church teaches. I will try to find this reference later.

    One might make the case he went to a Modernist seminary, so he really didn’t learn Catholicism. But he grew up in a Catholic family pre-Vatican II, and he is claiming to be the Pope of the Catholic Church, so I don’t think there is any wiggle room for people to claim he is ignorant.

    Also, he is constantly bashing traditionalism and traditionalists, which shows he does know what the Church teaches, but denies it any way. The fact that he says “I might be saying something heretical, but” and continues any way shows this man is of incredibly bad will.

    And the question of a heretical Pope deals with manifest vs. occult heresy.

    I think making the argument as to Bergoglio’s illegitimacy from the doctrines of indefectibility and infallibility of the Church is much easier and straight forward, as Ladislaus has repeated. This is Bishop Sanborn’s approach as opposed to trying to prove the manifest heresy argument.

    If the the post Vatican II establishment is the Catholic Church, then it has defected.

    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #51 on: October 22, 2020, 10:59:03 AM »
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  • The claim that there is no hierarchy is false.  Bishops and priests without jurisdiction are still members of the hierarchy.
    Valid ordination of consecration doesn't make someone a member of the hierarchy.   The members of the hierarchy are those who possess the authority to teach, govern and sanctify in Christ's name.  That requires jurisdiction which is received by canonical mission. 

    Offline Veritatis

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #52 on: October 22, 2020, 11:06:17 AM »
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  • It's similar to how theologians describe normal sedevacantist periods.  They say that during that time Our Lord supplies jurisdiction to the Church directly, vs. through an actual living pope.  That is why priests continue to validly hear Confessions and Bishops continue to appoint pastors, etc. ... all legitimately during a sedevacantist period.  In fact, there's precedent for bishops being consecrated and installed during sedevacantist periods.

    Christ does not supply jurisdiction directly to priest and bishops during a sedevacante period.  When the Pope dies the bishops retain their ordination jurisdiction, and therefore the priests under them retain their delegated jurisdiction.  That's why bishops can continue to appoint pastors and why the confessions of the priests subject to them remain valid.

    The precedent for bishops being consecrated and installed during a sedevacante period is from the time when a papal mandate was not required for episcopal consecration.  It was legal then, it is not legal now. You can't appeal to an act that was legal at the time as a precedent to justify violating what the present law forbids.    


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #53 on: October 22, 2020, 11:11:40 AM »
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  • Valid ordination of consecration doesn't make someone a member of the hierarchy.   The members of the hierarchy are those who possess the authority to teach, govern and sanctify in Christ's name.  That requires jurisdiction which is received by canonical mission.
    Coming form one who holds the sedevacantist position, this is correct.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #54 on: October 22, 2020, 02:14:08 PM »
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  • Perhaps it is overdue for a prayer crusade…





    Yes, we should pray for the Restoration of the Papacy and the Holy See.



    And for the sudden and just death of any and all Jєω-popes and destroyer clowns.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #55 on: October 22, 2020, 02:24:16 PM »
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  • Valid ordination of consecration doesn't make someone a member of the hierarchy.   The members of the hierarchy are those who possess the authority to teach, govern and sanctify in Christ's name.  That requires jurisdiction which is received by canonical mission.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #56 on: October 22, 2020, 02:56:37 PM »
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  • Valid ordination of consecration doesn't make someone a member of the hierarchy.   The members of the hierarchy are those who possess the authority to teach, govern and sanctify in Christ's name.  That requires jurisdiction which is received by canonical mission.

    You obviously don't know what you are talking about.  Did you even look up the definition of the word?

    From Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology by Pietro Parente:

    hierarchy

    The body of persons participating in ecclesiastical power, which is divided into power of orders and power of jurisdiction.

    The power of orders is immediately directed to the sanctification of souls through the offering of the sacrifice of the Mass and the administration of the sacraments.  The power of jurisdiction, on the other hand, is immediately directed to ruling the faithful with reference to the attainment of life eternal, and is actuated through the authoritative teaching of revealed truths (sacred magisterium), and through the promulgation of laws (legislative power), together with the authoritative decision of legal actions involving its subjects (judicial power), and the application of penal sanctions against transgressors of the law (coactive or coercive power).  These last three powers are functions of the same sacred jurisdictional authority with which the Church is endowed as a perfect society.

    The power of jurisdiction is divided into: (1) power of forum externum, when directed principally to the common good, in so far as it regulates the social relations of the members and produces public juridical effects; and power of forum internum, when directed principally to private good, in so far as it regulates the relations of consciences with God and is exercised per se secretly and with prevalently moral effects; (2) ordinary power, when ipso jure (by law) it is connected with an office, and delegated power, when it is granted to a person by commission or delegation.  Ordinary power is further divided into proper, i.e., annexed to an office and exercised in one's own name (nomine proprio), and vicarious, i.e. annexed to an office but exercised in another's name.

    Since sacred power is twofold, hierarchy is likewise twofold, and therefore we have in the Church the hierarchy of orders, constituted by the body of persons having the power of orders in its different grades (see orders, holy), and the hierarchy of jurisdiction, consisting in the series of those persons who have the power of teaching and governing.

    In both hierarchies there are grades, i.e., the fundamental grades, which have their source in divine right (episcopate, priesthood, and diaconate in the hierarchy of orders; papacy and episcopate in the hierarchy of jurisdiction) and the secondary grades, which have been instituted by the Church.

    The two hierarchies, although very closely related, are really distinct.  They are distinct in their mode of origin (orders are conferred by the appropriate sacrament, while jurisdiction originates through canonical mission) and in their properties (the valid use of orders, in most cases, cannot be prevented, while jurisdiction is revocable).  They are, however, mutually related, because jurisdiction supposes orders and, vice versa, the exercise of orders is moderated by jurisdiction; and also because both come from God and directly or indirectly lead to God.

    Those members of the Church who belong to the twofold hierarchy are called clerics, while all the others are called laics, laymen, laity.  Since in its bosom the Church carries superiors and subjects, really distinct by divine right, it is an unequal society, i.e., a society in which the members do not have equal rights and duties.

    Offline alaric

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #57 on: October 22, 2020, 04:35:12 PM »
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  • Cardinal Burke challenges pope fag's snivel fag unions.

    Guess what? means nothing to pope fag or his agenda.

    these cardinals have been challenging faggie frankie for years and he doesn't even acknowledge them the least.

    He doesn't even give them the dignity of a reply. remember the "dubia" concerning amoris laetitia?

    No one else even exists who questions him. Not even senior cardinals.

    Except if your a fag. then he'll drop everything and run to support your fαɢɢօtry.

    I have no use for this guy, none. notta. nothing.

    Get this impostor out of the Vatican or God will surely put an end to it.

    One could hope and pray I guess.


    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/cardinal-burke-on-popes-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ-civil-union-remarks-contrary-to-the-teaching-of-sacred-scripture-and-sacred-tradition?utm_source=featured&utm_campaign=standard

    Offline alaric

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    Re: Pope Francis calls for civil union laws for same-sex couples
    « Reply #58 on: October 22, 2020, 04:49:05 PM »
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  • Cardinal Muller declares that if what pope fag says  contradicts what the Word of God says, we have to choose God.

    In all due respect, no duh cardinal. I means really, I need a Vatican prelate to tell me to believe God over what some faggy "pope" says about guys sleeping together and it's "really cool", well maybe, just maybe, it might  just not be what God wants (or says). I really need to be told to choose the Word of the  Lord our God over the the word of frankie the fag enabler. this is really pathetic.But this is what happens when you clearly have a manifest heretic in the Chair  of Peter and everyone acts like everything's normal and the pope is just a little too 'liberal" and social justice warrior. But hey man, he's the boss, whatever he says goes. Even when it comes to making up his own doctrines and contradicting Sacred Scripture.

    But hey, he's "pope", he can't possibly be wrong or questioned. even when it's NOT ex cathedra.

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/cdl.mueller-popes-words-on-gαy-civil-unions-purely-private-expression-of-opinion-which-every-catholic-can-and-should-freely-contradict?utm_source=top_news&utm_campaign=standard

    Offline Geremia

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    Antipope Francis has been calling for sodomite laws for awhile.
    « Reply #59 on: October 22, 2020, 05:09:32 PM »
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  • This is nothing new. He told ++Cordileone of San Francisco, in a meeting in Jan. 2020 with U.S. bishops, that: "it was important to ensure gαy couples have access to public benefits, but insisting gαy couples cannot marry." (this not a direct quote but the summary of the exchange in a CNS article).
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